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The difference in hearing them talk baseball couldn't be anymore vast.

Their demeanor in the dugout couldn't be any more vast.

Marmiol tries to be a counselor. Not Counsel. Oli is a doosch.

It is interesting to note how the cubs thought having a really good manager was important to team success, and that it was worth paying the highest manager salary in history. Yet the cards think they can always hire someone from inside their own organization who will always be good enough for team success others perhaps better outside the organization cannot or are not worth the difference.

Clubmaker2 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:09 pm It is interesting to note how the cubs thought having a really good manager was important to team success, and that it was worth paying the highest manager salary in history. Yet the cards think they can always hire someone from inside their own organization who will always be good enough for team success others perhaps better outside the organization cannot or are not worth the difference.

In 2024, the $8M Cub manager did not win any more games than Marmol managed Cardinals . Both had 83 wins .
Cubs manager with twice the years managing.

Do you think maybe PCA, Tucker additions make Counsell look better ?
Cub fans were not enthralled with his 83 wins in 2024. Managers with talented players look good. Ask Dave Roberts Dodgers.

yes, we all know that hiring Whitey or TLR was actually totally pointless and that skilled managers can never make a difference in an organization.

Was Bill stupid making a pointless move when he hired Tony or stupid when he hired Oli?

also note Nolan A said a month or two ago, the team had a different feeling this year, paraphrasing here, like they show up at the park thinking they can win? So, why could the leader Oli not get players to come to the park thinking they could win last year? Organizations at different times, may need different types of leadership to get them to respond. Oli is likely not it. This team needs multiple changes , hopefully a new manager next year that is (upset) when they lose and coaches telling them losing is unacceptable. Management has stated with Oli they extended him once cause they didnt want him to feel he had to win. Thats rotting from the head of the snake down.

ramfandan wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:33 pm

Clubmaker2 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:09 pm It is interesting to note how the cubs thought having a really good manager was important to team success, and that it was worth paying the highest manager salary in history. Yet the cards think they can always hire someone from inside their own organization who will always be good enough for team success others perhaps better outside the organization cannot or are not worth the difference.

In 2024, the $8M Cub manager did not win any more games than Marmol managed Cardinals . Both had 83 wins .
Cubs manager with twice the years managing.

Do you think maybe PCA, Tucker additions make Counsell look better ?
Cub fans were not enthralled with his 83 wins in 2024. Managers with talented players look good. Ask Dave Roberts Dodgers.

Yes, good teams make managers look good. That said, Counsell got the most out of mid-range teams for the Brewers. Look at the dugouts. Like Tony, Counsell is all business. Today, Fedde was sh*tting the bed and I saw Marmol smiling. IMHO he goes about the whole thing all wrong and I have thought that for years now. Get a real manager. It isn't little league. Would they miraculously have a better record? NO. You still need a good team, but you also need a real manager...

Clubmaker2 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:09 pm It is interesting to note how the cubs thought having a really good manager was important to team success, and that it was worth paying the highest manager salary in history. Yet the cards think they can always hire someone from inside their own organization who will always be good enough for team success others perhaps better outside the organization cannot or are not worth the difference.

This boils down to DeWitt being cheap and Mo wanting no challenge to his authority.

ramfandan wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:33 pm

Clubmaker2 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:09 pm It is interesting to note how the cubs thought having a really good manager was important to team success, and that it was worth paying the highest manager salary in history. Yet the cards think they can always hire someone from inside their own organization who will always be good enough for team success others perhaps better outside the organization cannot or are not worth the difference.

In 2024, the $8M Cub manager did not win any more games than Marmol managed Cardinals . Both had 83 wins .
Cubs manager with twice the years managing.

Do you think maybe PCA, Tucker additions make Counsell look better ?
Cub fans were not enthralled with his 83 wins in 2024. Managers with talented players look good. Ask Dave Roberts Dodgers.

I think your take ignores the fact that the Cubs front office did not have a full offseason to construct the team with Counsell's input until this year.

The main problem, as we all know, is Mo. His insecurity led to hiring Matheny and successors who all owe Mo total sycophantic loyalty. I’m not crazy about Oli, but I also don’t think he’s all that bad. I don’t think it’s terrible to smile in the dugout (we have no idea what someone might have said to him), or for our first baseman to have a friendly word with a runner on first. It’s a game!

The main problem, we all know, is DeWitt. Put out the money and you can win. Don't put out the money and you're Pittsburgh. Simple.

The Cards are ran by bankers. Bankers always look at the bottom line. What we need to hope will happen is Bloom walking into Dewitts office once Moz is out of the picture and asking to have full authority to right the ship. Then identify the core of this team moving forward, and drop the dead weight no matter what it takes. Trade or release anyone not living up to potential or contract. Bring in some fresh talent without it being the $300 mill players that puts a noose around a team and walk into next year with 6 to 10 new faces and a whole new management team. No player is worth 30 mill+ a year outside of an Aaron Judge. Find the $10 to $20 mill guys that add value for the dollar and do a true reset.

Northsider76 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 23:51 pm

ramfandan wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:33 pm

Clubmaker2 wrote: ↑06 Jul 2025 20:09 pm It is interesting to note how the cubs thought having a really good manager was important to team success, and that it was worth paying the highest manager salary in history. Yet the cards think they can always hire someone from inside their own organization who will always be good enough for team success others perhaps better outside the organization cannot or are not worth the difference.

In 2024, the $8M Cub manager did not win any more games than Marmol managed Cardinals . Both had 83 wins .
Cubs manager with twice the years managing.

Do you think maybe PCA, Tucker additions make Counsell look better ?
Cub fans were not enthralled with his 83 wins in 2024. Managers with talented players look good. Ask Dave Roberts Dodgers.

I think your take ignores the fact that the Cubs front office did not have a full offseason to construct the team with Counsell's input until this year.

Very good point, cubby fan. Counsell is a very good manager, and the cubs were smart to sign him. They have also made several excellent moves over the last few years which have paid large dividends: This past off season they picked up Boyd, who was a decent pitcher with Detroit but had some recent injury issues. They totally rebuilt their bullpen, acquiring Rea, Pomeranz, Flexen, Thielbar, Keller, and Pressly. The trade for Tucker was great if they advance deep into the postseason this fall, even if they do not sign him after the season. The Carson Kelly signing has even turned into gold, a guy who had under performed for years.

Prior to this last off season, they signed Imanaga, who has been outstanding. They fleeced the Dodgers with the trade for Michael Busch. They also have come out way ahead on the trade for PCA - giving the Mets Javier Baez and Trevor Williams.

Counsell has always been a manager who likes to run, and the cubs are excelling in that regard, leading the NL in stolen bases this year, and they don't get thrown out much - only 18 CS out of 124 attempts.

I hate to admit it, but the small bears have made a lot of smart moves to put themselves in position to compete for the NL championship this year. The addition of Counsell is just one of them, kind of like their hiring of Joe Maddon as manager in 2015.

Counsell / Marmol

=

Bentley / Yugo

Counsell looks really good right now but will it hold up. PCA has never had a year like this anywhere, minors or otherwise. Will it last the entire year? I don't know but he was brought up for his speed and defense not this offense. Seiya has more home runs right now than he has ever had in a season his entire career. Once again, will it hold up? Nobody knows but has never performed at this level in the past. Carson Kelly is having a career year also. He had one very good season in Arizona but nothing like this year for the Cubs. If these players do this all season, the Cubs win the central. If, they come back to the real world, other teams can catch them and the playoffs might be one and done!

Counsell hasn’t won anything without Pat Murphy by his side. Murphy’s been the real leader of the Brewers for years. Didn’t look like the Brewers and Murphy missed Counsell last year.
Let’s see how the season plays out. Milwaukee has a payroll half that of the Cubs, but they’re right on their tail.

janb526 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2025 09:03 am Counsell looks really good right now but will it hold up. PCA has never had a year like this anywhere, minors or otherwise. Will it last the entire year? I don't know but he was brought up for his speed and defense not this offense. Seiya has more home runs right now than he has ever had in a season his entire career. Once again, will it hold up? Nobody knows but has never performed at this level in the past. Carson Kelly is having a career year also. He had one very good season in Arizona but nothing like this year for the Cubs. If these players do this all season, the Cubs win the central. If, they come back to the real world, other teams can catch them and the playoffs might be one and done!

Seiya has never had the lineup protection he has now and DH'ing seems to agree with him so I don't think this is a fluke. PCA's lack of plate discipline concerns me more, but his otherworldly ability to hit balls out of the zone has worked for him so far. The league has already started to adjust but he has also (to an extent). I've seen him take pitches that he wouldn't have earlier in the season, but overall he still needs to improve in that area. Hard to reconcile a guy with those baserunning skills not taking more walks. I think he will as he matures. What it means for this season? I guess we'll see.