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I am looking at their problems as a glass half full.
I’m hoping that Brown and Allen will get them somewhat ‘fixed’ in the next month or two.

If that were to happen and our pitching holds up we can make and maybe go deep in the playoffs.

How many years or PA do you think it should take to be able to display that a young player can sustain hitting in the ML? They don’t look the part.
Winn, Scott, look like they can hit….even when they go through a rough stretch. Their approach seems solid and eventually line drives come.
With Walker he looks clueless and then hits a couple ground balls through the infield.
With Gorman he looks clueless and then might hit a long ball but neither of these 2 sustain or look like their finally progressing.

Most ML players are in their middle 20's when they reach the ML. Those two guys are 22. they have the tools they just need time. Show some patience.

bretto12 wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:03 am Most ML players are in their middle 20's when they reach the ML. Those two guys are 22. they have the tools they just need time. Show some patience.

Gorman turned 25 yesterday. His "runway" is only getting shorter.

Surprisingly, Baseball Trade Values suggests that Gorman still has some trade value (13.2). Jordan Walker is presently listed as having an even 0 for trade value. Personally, I would try to include Gorman on a deadline deal and continue to work with Walker.

Neither show the intelligence to make the improvements necessary.

Send them down. Bring up Saggesse and let Barrero play more.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:19 am Neither show the intelligence to make the improvements necessary.

So lack of intelligence is the issue ? Hmmm ? So if you give an IQ test to all players when they are draft eligible their IQ will determine whether they can make the improvements necessary to hit at the MLB level ?

I have no idea of either player's intelligence. I do know this . USUALLY kids of smart parents tend to have good brain power themselves.
In Walker's case, his father went to MIT and works at a computer software company outside Atlanta. His mother went to Harvard, then a Masters if Business Economics from Wash. U. in St. Louis and a 2nd Masters from Emory U.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/baseball/ne ... n-explored

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:18 am Surprisingly, Baseball Trade Values suggests that Gorman still has some trade value (13.2). Jordan Walker is presently listed as having an even 0 for trade value. Personally, I would try to include Gorman on a deadline deal and continue to work with Walker.

Im sure position of 2b/3b vs outfield has something to do with it but i wouldnt really believe that trade disparity or that most teams will see that the same way.

ramfandan wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:51 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:19 am Neither show the intelligence to make the improvements necessary.

So lack of intelligence is the issue ? Hmmm ? So if you give an IQ test to all players when they are draft eligible their IQ will determine whether they can make the improvements necessary to hit at the MLB level ?

I have no idea of either player's intelligence. I do know this . USUALLY kids of smart parents tend to have good brain power themselves.
In Walker's case, his father went to MIT and works at a computer software company outside Atlanta. His mother went to Harvard, then a Masters if Business Economics from Wash. U. in St. Louis and a 2nd Masters from Emory U.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/baseball/ne ... n-explored

Where did I say IQ? Intelligence, baseball acumen and baseball intelligence. The ability to take/receive instruction and work/build on it to improve his hitting.

Today is May 11th .. I would say Walker and Gorman have 8 weeks to show some improvement. That would then be Jul 11 th (2 months from today ).
The July 31st trade deadline day would be 20 days later.
If neither or both show no signs of improvement, they could be trade bait by Mo/Bloom . Option B would be to keep them both thru August /September see where they are at the end of year, then make a move in the offseason (winter meetings ) .
Gorman seems to be in more jeopardy as the organization has two infielders .. Thomas Saggese and in another year JJ Wetherholt on the rise.
Of course , a trade of Arenado would open 3rd base that could help Gorman.

As for Walker in the OF, the Cardinals currently don't have any youngsters pushing from the minors . Some suggest converting Herrera to OF .

cards53 wrote: ↑11 May 2025 10:52 am I am looking at their problems as a glass half full.
I’m hoping that Brown and Allen will get them somewhat ‘fixed’ in the next month or two.

If that were to happen and our pitching holds up we can make and maybe go deep in the playoffs.

Gorman's underlying metrics are almost all much improved this year.
He has reduced his K rate by one third, his BB rate is elite, line drive and fly ball rates are both up.
EV is down a bit, but that is by design as he is making far more contact.
He has been hitting into some bad luck (his BABIP rate is about 50-60 points less than would be expected).
That said, he needs to show progress this year - and I fully expect him to.
Walker, though younger, is the bigger question mark.
His fly ball and line drive rates have not progressed, his K rate has become worse, and his BB rate is poor.
He has maintained a quality EV - but little seems to come of it.
He is a big man and has a lot of strike zone to cover - and as a result pitchers have a lot of success tying him up inside.
Bottom line.
Both players are talented and have high ceilings if they can put the pieces together - but Gorman appears to be a lot closer of the 2 to doing so.

ramfandan wrote: ↑11 May 2025 12:04 pm Today is May 11th .. I would say Walker and Gorman have 8 weeks to show some improvement. That would then be Jul 11 th (2 months from today ).
The July 31st trade deadline day would be 20 days later.
If neither or both show no signs of improvement, they could be trade bait by Mo/Bloom . Option B would be to keep them both thru August /September see where they are at the end of year, then make a move in the offseason (winter meetings ) .
Gorman seems to be in more jeopardy as the organization has two infielders .. Thomas Saggese and in another year JJ Wetherholt on the rise.
Of course , a trade of Arenado would open 3rd base that could help Gorman.

As for Walker in the OF, the Cardinals currently don't have any youngsters pushing from the minors . Some suggest converting Herrera to OF .

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the situation above. The Cards playing time distribution of Gorman and Walker is also indicative they are closer to giving up on Gorman than Walker. lets face it, none of us are professional coaches on here. Some other ML team may have a good idea on how to coach up one of or both Gorman and Walker. There may also be zero teams that think that can be done. One of the bottom feeders, Marlines, Rockies, White Sox, Angels or Pirate would be the most likely landing spot for someone like Gorman or Walker. If the Cards were to trade Gorman during the season, I would want there best two relief pitchers in return.

I have been advocating for the Cards to give Herrera a shot in the OF. It is far from certain if they have any other OFs in the system that will be ML starter ready in the next 2 years. Donovan is always a back up plan if the fill out the IF with JJ and Saggese. The numbers Walker put up in the minor leagues were fantastic. Somewhere, he has the talent to do this. I just hope it is the Cards that extract that from him and not someone else...

I think Gorman will be traded and walker sent to minors. Gorman has to much potential for a team not to take chance.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:19 am Neither show the intelligence to make the improvements necessary.

You don't know it's intelligence, could be skill. Keep doing as you do, assuming reasons for lack of production. Sad....sad

bretto12 wrote: ↑11 May 2025 11:03 am Most ML players are in their middle 20's when they reach the ML. Those two guys are 22. they have the tools they just need time. Show some patience.

Patience comes at high premium when tool development occurs in the bigs rather than the minors.
Tick tock.