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Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 08 May 2025 23:24 pm
by Baseball Savant
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 00:05 am
by ICCFIM2
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
They are, but they saddled themselves with NTC, Arenado, Contreras, Gray that makes trading them problematic. MO tried to trade Arenado but he balked at it. They should have traded Fedde this offseason and Mikolas for that matter if they could. But, I think they feared not having sufficient arms to cover the season. They can fix that issue in June. I am OK with where they are on the position players. By the end of the year, the Gorman question should be answered.
I know Walker has not been the player we have hoped for so far. But before the Cards give up on him, folks should look at Byron Buxton's statistics. After putting up a 728 OPS his age 23 season, he came back with a 383 (not a typo) in his age 24 season. I know he has been hurt a lot, but since then he has been 800+ 6 of 7 seasons with 1 1000 OPS season. ...And he strikes out a lot. But, the production is there. So the Cards are in a tricky situation with Walker, no matter how bad it looks.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 00:24 am
by scoutyjones2
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Please, "savant," how long does it take to "flame out" as a youngster
Oh super genius...
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 04:53 am
by Barking Lion
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Quicksand is a strange comparison. I don't see this team as sinking. Last season, they were quicksand but, IMO, they have found a base and are now wading in mud. We are getting a better look at who we can build with and who we can't. I would urge some patience with Walker but I don't see Gorman fixing his weaknesses. As for vets, you can't trade them unless someone is willing to give decent return.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 05:25 am
by ramfandan
Barking Lion wrote: ↑09 May 2025 04:53 am
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Quicksand is a strange comparison. I don't see this team as sinking. Last season, they were quicksand but, IMO, they have found a base and are now wading in mud. We are getting a better look at who we can build with and who we can't. I would urge some patience with Walker but I don't see Gorman fixing his weaknesses. As for vets, you can't trade them unless someone is willing to give decent return.
Good post ! Like your 'wading in mud' description better than 'quicksand' . As for the trades, the saying applies 'it takes two to tango' . I do think the Cardinals will be getting some phone calls at the trade deadline. See so many teams with pitchers going down. A couple of our vets should draw some interest . The 'decent return' ? Who knows the value at this time. Age, contract expiration has as much to do with that as actual performance. An expiring contract rarely draws much in return as the trading team is only guaranteed a couple months of that player with no certainty he resigns for 2026.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 08:48 am
by rockondlouie
ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 00:05 am
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
They are, but they saddled themselves with NTC, Arenado, Contreras, Gray that makes trading them problematic. MO tried to trade Arenado but he balked at it. They should have traded Fedde this offseason and Mikolas for that matter if they could. But, I think they feared not having sufficient arms to cover the season. They can fix that issue in June. I am OK with where they are on the position players. By the end of the year, the Gorman question should be answered.
I know Walker has not been the player we have hoped for so far. But before the Cards give up on him, folks should look at Byron Buxton's statistics. After putting up a 728 OPS his age 23 season, he came back with a 383 (not a typo) in his age 24 season. I know he has been hurt a lot, but since then he has been 800+ 6 of 7 seasons with 1 1000 OPS season. ...And he strikes out a lot. But, the production is there. So the Cards are in a tricky situation with Walker, no matter how bad it looks.
Mikolas has a NTC too.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 09:36 am
by BrockFloodMaris
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
The visual of "Quicksand" paints quite an image. I actually like Kenny Rosenthal's metaphor for the Cards used in an early spring training article for the Athletic. He called us "caught in between". Until Nado, Fedde, Mikolas, Matz and RH are dealt, we are certainly stuck in limbo.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 09:46 am
by hmoss859
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
It is interesting hearing a National announcer perspective on Cardinals
Based on Mo recent comments about the runway getting shorter for Gorman and Walker I assume they are being swayed by standings, which is a huge mistake, give them 500 at bats and then decide, however if Gorman needs to be added as a sweetener at trade deadline you have to consider it
This season should not be about winning or competing, it’s about preparing to win in the future (2026, 2027, 2028)
Quicksand means stuck not sinking but the longer they delay trading these vets then the sinking reallybegins
I don’t trust Mo to make the right decision, I do think Bloom has to be involved to acquire young pitching
The pitching depth in minors is just not there, either starters or relievers, the minor league teams blow saves left and right.
Walz also announced for Marlins and Dbacks so he knows about rebuilds
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 09:50 am
by sikeston bulldog2
No the best analogy is- they are caught somewhere between a memory and a dream.
Memory of whiteys teams, dream of the 2004 team. Caught the n the middle.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 09:50 am
by 82birds
hmoss859: I don't trust MO to make the right decision.
no kidding !
who does?
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 10:04 am
by Baseball Savant
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 00:24 am
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Please, "savant," how long does it take to "flame out" as a youngster
Oh super genius...
Normally 1200-1500 MLB at bats is the flame out point
Gorman has 1120 AB and Walker 696
Instead of being a smart aleck with your genius comment maybe you should learn from the Savant
Gorman and Walker need 500 at bats this season, team record be damned,both are first round picks
Gorman is nearing the flame out point, Walker deserves more runway
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 10:06 am
by sikeston bulldog2
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑09 May 2025 10:04 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 00:24 am
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Please, "savant," how long does it take to "flame out" as a youngster
Oh super genius...
Normally 1200-1500 MLB at bats is the flame out point
Gorman has 1120 AB and Walker 696
Instead of being a smart aleck with your genius maybe you should learn from the Savant
Gorman and Walker need 500 at bats this season, team record be damned,both are first round picks
That’s the point of the reset. Patience however seems to be the huckleberry.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 10:37 am
by hmoss859
Mike Shannon always said 1000 MLB at bats was the signal going forward with a prospect
Maybe it’s 1500 AB these days, all I know is neither Gorman or Walker have a lick of confidence at plate right now
Winn and Scott have a different swag about them and have adjusted as needed, and I no doubt have confidence they are on the right path
I say let 2025 decide Gorman and Walkers future, maybe both need a change of scenery
But the standings have to be ignored in 2025, this is not a playoff team in any form or fashion
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 10:44 am
by Futuregm2
hmoss859 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 10:37 am
Mike Shannon always said 1000 MLB at bats was the signal going forward with a prospect
Maybe it’s 1500 AB these days, all I know is neither Gorman or Walker have a lick of confidence at plate right now
Winn and Scott have a different swag about them and have adjusted as needed, and I no doubt have confidence they are on the right path
I say let 2025 decide Gorman and Walkers future, maybe both need a change of scenery
But the standings have to be ignored in 2025,
this is not a playoff team in any form or fashion
They aren’t that far off one though. With the right moves, I believe they could be an interesting playoff team.
Libby has already shown that he can go toe to toe with other team’s aces, he’s out dueled Zack Wheeler and Paul Skenes this season. Sonny Gray is a very good, competitive starter himself. If you were to add maybe one more SP to the mix that could pitch like them, you’ve got a trio that could give you a good shot.
The offense should get better now with Herrera back healthy. The offense is solid except for one more corner OFer.
And then the bullpen, for now, has an elite closer and Leahy has proven to be a good bullpen arm. Maton is a solid vet. Matz has been terrific, albeit will probably be traded. We’ll see what Graceffo can do out of the bullpen.
I think with the right moves or right improvements, the team could at least make this year interesting.
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 10:47 am
by scoutyjones2
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑09 May 2025 10:04 am
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 00:24 am
Baseball Savant wrote: ↑08 May 2025 23:24 pm
Goold had a chat with Rich Walz who described the Cards stuck in quicksand
Being a .500 team who hasn’t committed to a rebuild and waiting for young players to develop.
Good description at some point you gotta trade the vets, build the core and cut your losses on the young players who flame out
BDW just can’t make himself do it - but they should purge soon
The fence straddling is just quicksand
Please, "savant," how long does it take to "flame out" as a youngster
Oh super genius...
Normally 1200-1500 MLB at bats is the flame out point
Gorman has 1120 AB and Walker 696
Instead of being a smart aleck with your genius comment maybe you should learn from the Savant
Gorman and Walker need 500 at bats this season, team record be damned,both are first round picks
Gorman is nearing the flame out point, Walker deserves more runway
So a 23 year old with 700 AB's is at risk of flaming out while still under control?
I think I could learn nothing from a self proclaimed savant...
Re: Stuck in quicksand, Apple announcer Rich Walz
Posted: 09 May 2025 11:30 am
by rockondlouie
Futuregm2 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 10:44 am
hmoss859 wrote: ↑09 May 2025 10:37 am
Mike Shannon always said 1000 MLB at bats was the signal going forward with a prospect
Maybe it’s 1500 AB these days, all I know is neither Gorman or Walker have a lick of confidence at plate right now
Winn and Scott have a different swag about them and have adjusted as needed, and I no doubt have confidence they are on the right path
I say let 2025 decide Gorman and Walkers future, maybe both need a change of scenery
But the standings have to be ignored in 2025,
this is not a playoff team in any form or fashion
They aren’t that far off one though.
With the right moves, I believe they could be an interesting playoff team.
Libby has already shown that he can go toe to toe with other team’s aces, he’s out dueled Zack Wheeler and Paul Skenes this season. Sonny Gray is a very good, competitive starter himself. If you were to add maybe one more SP to the mix that could pitch like them, you’ve got a trio that could give you a good shot.
The offense should get better now with Herrera back healthy. The offense is solid except for one more corner OFer.
And then the bullpen, for now, has an elite closer and Leahy has proven to be a good bullpen arm. Maton is a solid vet. Matz has been terrific, albeit will probably be traded. We’ll see what Graceffo can do out of the bullpen.
I think with the right moves or right improvements, the team could at least make this year interesting.
^^^THIS^^^
Why are we just going to throw this season in the waste basket when all the other NLC teams, yes even the scrubbies who are seeing starting pitchers fall like flies and can't maintain this scoring pace, have just as many warts as the Cardinals?
Sure you can still deal Mikolas if he'd waive and/or Fedde (sliding McGreevy in one of their slots), perhaps even NADO and/or Matz.
But unless the return is too good to pass up, then I don't want to see them get rid of Helsley for lotto tickets.
IF this teams figures out it's road woes and can play .500 ball there from here out, then their great Home record (if it continues) could easily make them strong contenders for the NLC.