STLtoday.com

Rewind to 2022
Liberatore was maligned on this site.
Pure hatred for the kid.
Gorman was hailed as the next great
superstar.
Oh, how the tide has turned.
Crazy shift in 2025

Bully4you wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:37 pm Rewind to 2022
Liberatore was maligned on this site.
Pure hatred for the kid.
Gorman was hailed as the next great
superstar.
Oh, how the tide has turned.
Crazy shift in 2025

This is his 4th year now.
Go look at Kershaw's 1st year in 2008 , he was 5-5 with a 4.26 His career really didn't take off til his 4th year in 2011 .. 21-5 2.28
This is Libby's 4th year. Some pitchers (even top level ones ) need a few years under their belt to fulfill their potential. Not saying Libby will be as good as Kershaw but both pitchers blossomed after a few years.

Bully4you wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:37 pm Rewind to 2022
Liberatore was maligned on this site.
Pure hatred for the kid.
Gorman was hailed as the next great
superstar.
Oh, how the tide has turned.
Crazy shift in 2025

I only know of one person that thought Libby may be better than Gorman ... Mrs. Liberatore but she kept it pretty much under the radar as she wanted to keep peace in the household since her husband thought Gorman was better ! lol

ramfandan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:48 pm

Bully4you wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:37 pm Rewind to 2022
Liberatore was maligned on this site.
Pure hatred for the kid.
Gorman was hailed as the next great
superstar.
Oh, how the tide has turned.
Crazy shift in 2025

This is his 4th year now.
Go look at Kershaw's 1st year in 2008 , he was 5-5 with a 4.26 His career really didn't take off til his 4th year in 2011 .. 21-5 2.28
This is Libby's 4th year. Some pitchers (even top level ones ) need a few years under their belt to fulfill their potential. Not saying Libby will be as good as Kershaw but both pitchers blossomed after a few years.

Kershaw had a 2.85 ERA over 62 starts in 2009 and 2010 with an average of 5 bWAR, a 3.10 FIP and 397 K’s in 375 IP. I’m not sure how you could say that his career didn’t take off until 2011.

ramfandan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:51 pm

Bully4you wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:37 pm Rewind to 2022
Liberatore was maligned on this site.
Pure hatred for the kid.
Gorman was hailed as the next great
superstar.
Oh, how the tide has turned.
Crazy shift in 2025

I only know of one person that thought Libby may be better than Gorman ... Mrs. Liberatore but she kept it pretty much under the radar as she wanted to keep peace in the household since her husband thought Gorman was better ! lol

That would be correct.
Liberatore was heavily criticized here.
Gorman was revered.
Lot has changed and
Clayton Kershaw has nothing to do with it.

Let's not even put Kershaw
and Liberatore in the same
sentence anymore.
I know I just did, but
going forward that is.

We don't even have a nickname for Liberatore
What about the Liberator?
We have one for the sorry Gorman
aka the Unicorn

They play different positions impossible to compare. Problem is Cards over hyped both. Libby is showing promise.

It wouldn’t have been that much of a stretch to think that. Gorman has always been and continues to be an over rated AAAA player.

to answer the question in the thread title...
no, I did not

ramfandan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:48 pm

Bully4you wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 12:37 pm Rewind to 2022
Liberatore was maligned on this site.
Pure hatred for the kid.
Gorman was hailed as the next great
superstar.
Oh, how the tide has turned.
Crazy shift in 2025

This is his 4th year now.
Go look at Kershaw's 1st year in 2008 , he was 5-5 with a 4.26 His career really didn't take off til his 4th year in 2011 .. 21-5 2.28
This is Libby's 4th year. Some pitchers (even top level ones ) need a few years under their belt to fulfill their potential. Not saying Libby will be as good as Kershaw but both pitchers blossomed after a few years.

I said this exact same thing at least 100 times on this site. It typically fell on deaf ears. Many lefties oftentimes don't "find it" until their mid or late 20's. Randy Johnson great example.

However, same holds true for Gorman. He's still only 24 years old. It very well could click for him and if it does, the Cards will really have something. Maybe it never does, but this team isn't going anywhere, so might as well find out!

Others have said that lefties especially take time to develop into effective pitchers. I will admit that I didn't think Libs would be any better than a good lefty reliever.

That said, I've never been particularly enamored with Gorman. I saw a draft day comp that listed him alongside Russel Branyan and Shane Andrews. I know they can't all be Scott Rolen, but Branyan/Andrews don't scream "GOTTA HAVE THIS GUY ON THE TEAM" to me.

Does anyone know why Liberatore is suddenly effective against RHB?

Year PA .AVG .OBP .SLG .OPS
2025 088 .239 .239 .341 .580
2024 220 .263 .344 .479 .823
2023 220 .302 .377 .484 .862
2022 121 .327 .395 .615 1.010

I very badly want to believe this is a permanent fundamental improvement and not a small sample size thing.

I don't much care to distinguish values for Gorman and Liberatore. There is no relevance.

I remain interested in determining a value between Arozarena and Liberatore the trade proponents. For years the Cards FO has been lambasted for reaching for a pitcher while trading a quality outfielder. The first 4 years Arozarena has amassed 13 WAR value while Libby has zero. Let it be noted that the Cards needed both outfield and pitching contributions during the past 4 years ('20-24).

So where are we? We have pretty much resolved our shortfall in the outfield but remain in need of securing pitching. While Libby has been slow to respond, it would appear that he is turning a big corner in '25. His ERA+ is @ 130 and he is beginning to look like the strong starter we've wanted him to become.

While Arozarena has shown flashes of brilliance, his WAR peaked in 2021 @ 4.2. 2023 was the last time it was over 2. Since he has passed 4 years of control, Tampa decided it was time to send him packing before 2026 FA. On the other hand, Libby just completed his first year of team control...with 5 remaining (2029). While we can't be sure how Libby will fare going forward, suddenly the trade appears so much more favorable. His K/BB ratio is currently 14. It's exciting to see how much control he's developed incrementally.

Think that a young man 5 years younger than Arozarena might just turn out to contribute more to the Cardinals than Arozarena has to the Tampa Bay.

cardstatman wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 20:40 pm Does anyone know why Liberatore is suddenly effective against RHB?

Year PA .AVG .OBP .SLG .OPS
2025 088 .239 .239 .341 .580
2024 220 .263 .344 .479 .823
2023 220 .302 .377 .484 .862
2022 121 .327 .395 .615 1.010

I very badly want to believe this is a permanent fundamental improvement and not a small sample size thing.

Command and control seems to be a big contributor. His OBP has improved year over year from 4.7/9 I, to 3.6/9, to 2.9/9 to a measly 0.6/9 this year. .6 probably isn't sustainable, but the momentum is impressive.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 21:28 pm

cardstatman wrote: ↑29 Apr 2025 20:40 pm Does anyone know why Liberatore is suddenly effective against RHB?

Year PA .AVG .OBP .SLG .OPS
2025 088 .239 .239 .341 .580
2024 220 .263 .344 .479 .823
2023 220 .302 .377 .484 .862
2022 121 .327 .395 .615 1.010

I very badly want to believe this is a permanent fundamental improvement and not a small sample size thing.

Command and control seems to be a big contributor. His OBP has improved year over year from 4.7/9 I, to 3.6/9, to 2.9/9 to a measly 0.6/9 this year. .6 probably isn't sustainable, but the momentum is impressive.

That is BB/9, not OBP.