STLtoday.com

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:08 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:02 am

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 10:37 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:35 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:27 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:24 am Baseball in St. Louis was near dead in the late '70's. Mr. Busch hired Whitey Herzog on a handshake and beer. Whitey made moves to improve the defense, team speed and brought excitement back to Cardinal baseball.

It's not always about spending money; it's about having someone in charge that knows what they are doing. Overpriced tickets, concessions and giving away bobble heads does not bring fans into the park, exciting baseball does.

Cardinal management has gotten stale relying on past performance and not in making good player moves to keep the team exciting for the fans.

This is my opinion from a fan, not a businessman.

You’re saying exciting baseball brings the crowd. By that thinking the dodgers and Blue Jays should lead the attendance sheet. And the other post season teams right behind them.

I checked. At 2.7 million and above- SD, Atlanta Philly Mets cubs Dodgers Boston Yanks

Los Angeles Dodgers: 35,703
San Diego Padres: 34,500
New York Yankees: 33,000
Philadelphia Phillies: 32,500
New York Mets: 32,000
Chicago Cubs: 31,500
Atlanta Braves: 31,000
San Francisco Giants: 30,500
Boston Red Sox: 30,000
Houston Astros: 29,500
Toronto Blue Jays: 29,000
Los Angeles Angels: 28,500
Milwaukee Brewers: 28,000
Texas Rangers: 27,500
Colorado Rockies: 27,000
Detroit Tigers: 26,500
St. Louis Cardinals: 26,000

Five of the first six were post season.

Look at the size of the markets.

Thank you , Cranny ! For years now, I don't understand how fans compare stadium attendance of various clubs and not consider the vast difference in metro populations of each. When I brought that up to a buddy a couple years ago, his reply was well NY, LA, and Chicago have TWO teams . My reply to that was .. Well NY has a metro pop. over 20+M , LA has 13-18 M, chicago 9.6-9.9 M while St. Louis has 2.8 M
Even with two MLB teams those 3 markets alone have a range of 10 times to nearly 4 times as many people to draw from to attend games.
It's the same with TV monies generated by teams. LAD get $334M per in their deal with Spectrum while the Cardinals get $50? M maybe from their revised deal in St. Louis after Bally bankruptcy. Some falsely think that a team in St. Louis should be able to go toe to toe financially with the 'big boy' market teams . Under the current system, that is pie in the sky .

Walk me through the Padres’ TV deal and how it compares to the Cardinals’. I’m with you on the Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees but there’s no excuse to not do what the Padres do.

The Padres are owned by a private equity group that has access ro almost unlimited funds. They bought Rawlings Sporting Goods not too long ago.

StlMike1969 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:43 am There are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of attendance in my opinion.

1. Wokeism. MLB did it to itself like other sports. They decided to wade into the culture pool and ended up on the wrong side of who their true base was. A majority of people follow a path of being supposedly open minded when they are young that is fed heavily by the educational system to hate all things conservative. Then once they get real jobs, businesses, buy homes and have children most start to understand that their beliefs have been jaded from one side and start going against their early beliefs. They also become the majority base of population that then visit professional sporting events. In the last 10 years or so many of these people have become awake on a grand scale about the bread and circus events and when MLB went into the tide pool backed out from spending their $.

2. The destruction of the American mind set. Since the 70's we have started to see a decline in Americanism that was brought on purposely by a group of people playing the long game meant to lead us to where we are today. Baseball was an American sport woven into the fabric of our society. Point 1 illustrates this and where we are today.

3. Downtown crime, traffic and violence. Stadiums are most often encircled by lower cost neighborhoods and a difficult drive to get to. The game is too expensive and not dramatic enough at 162 games to warrant the time and money spent to go to a game when you can just watch it from home.

4. Other points made about corporate sponsors.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:22 pm

StlMike1969 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:43 am There are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of attendance in my opinion.

1. Wokeism. MLB did it to itself like other sports. They decided to wade into the culture pool and ended up on the wrong side of who their true base was. A majority of people follow a path of being supposedly open minded when they are young that is fed heavily by the educational system to hate all things conservative. Then once they get real jobs, businesses, buy homes and have children most start to understand that their beliefs have been jaded from one side and start going against their early beliefs. They also become the majority base of population that then visit professional sporting events. In the last 10 years or so many of these people have become awake on a grand scale about the bread and circus events and when MLB went into the tide pool backed out from spending their $.

2. The destruction of the American mind set. Since the 70's we have started to see a decline in Americanism that was brought on purposely by a group of people playing the long game meant to lead us to where we are today. Baseball was an American sport woven into the fabric of our society. Point 1 illustrates this and where we are today.

3. Downtown crime, traffic and violence. Stadiums are most often encircled by lower cost neighborhoods and a difficult drive to get to. The game is too expensive and not dramatic enough at 162 games to warrant the time and money spent to go to a game when you can just watch it from home.

4. Other points made about corporate sponsors.

You have GOT to be kidding.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:49 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:22 pm

StlMike1969 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:43 am There are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of attendance in my opinion.

1. Wokeism. MLB did it to itself like other sports. They decided to wade into the culture pool and ended up on the wrong side of who their true base was. A majority of people follow a path of being supposedly open minded when they are young that is fed heavily by the educational system to hate all things conservative. Then once they get real jobs, businesses, buy homes and have children most start to understand that their beliefs have been jaded from one side and start going against their early beliefs. They also become the majority base of population that then visit professional sporting events. In the last 10 years or so many of these people have become awake on a grand scale about the bread and circus events and when MLB went into the tide pool backed out from spending their $.

2. The destruction of the American mind set. Since the 70's we have started to see a decline in Americanism that was brought on purposely by a group of people playing the long game meant to lead us to where we are today. Baseball was an American sport woven into the fabric of our society. Point 1 illustrates this and where we are today.

3. Downtown crime, traffic and violence. Stadiums are most often encircled by lower cost neighborhoods and a difficult drive to get to. The game is too expensive and not dramatic enough at 162 games to warrant the time and money spent to go to a game when you can just watch it from home.

4. Other points made about corporate sponsors.

You have GOT to be kidding.

Several of those points are good points, rat.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 13:02 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:49 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:22 pm

StlMike1969 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:43 am There are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of attendance in my opinion.

1. Wokeism. MLB did it to itself like other sports. They decided to wade into the culture pool and ended up on the wrong side of who their true base was. A majority of people follow a path of being supposedly open minded when they are young that is fed heavily by the educational system to hate all things conservative. Then once they get real jobs, businesses, buy homes and have children most start to understand that their beliefs have been jaded from one side and start going against their early beliefs. They also become the majority base of population that then visit professional sporting events. In the last 10 years or so many of these people have become awake on a grand scale about the bread and circus events and when MLB went into the tide pool backed out from spending their $.

2. The destruction of the American mind set. Since the 70's we have started to see a decline in Americanism that was brought on purposely by a group of people playing the long game meant to lead us to where we are today. Baseball was an American sport woven into the fabric of our society. Point 1 illustrates this and where we are today.

3. Downtown crime, traffic and violence. Stadiums are most often encircled by lower cost neighborhoods and a difficult drive to get to. The game is too expensive and not dramatic enough at 162 games to warrant the time and money spent to go to a game when you can just watch it from home.

4. Other points made about corporate sponsors.

You have GOT to be kidding.

Several of those points are good points, rat.

The only one remotely valid is #4. We've beaten #3 to death; going to a baseball game downtown is perfectly safe if you use common sense. The first two? Turn the cable news off.

StlMike1969 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 15:45 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 13:02 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:49 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:22 pm

StlMike1969 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:43 am There are numerous factors that are contributing to the decline of attendance in my opinion.

1. Wokeism. MLB did it to itself like other sports. They decided to wade into the culture pool and ended up on the wrong side of who their true base was. A majority of people follow a path of being supposedly open minded when they are young that is fed heavily by the educational system to hate all things conservative. Then once they get real jobs, businesses, buy homes and have children most start to understand that their beliefs have been jaded from one side and start going against their early beliefs. They also become the majority base of population that then visit professional sporting events. In the last 10 years or so many of these people have become awake on a grand scale about the bread and circus events and when MLB went into the tide pool backed out from spending their $.

2. The destruction of the American mind set. Since the 70's we have started to see a decline in Americanism that was brought on purposely by a group of people playing the long game meant to lead us to where we are today. Baseball was an American sport woven into the fabric of our society. Point 1 illustrates this and where we are today.

3. Downtown crime, traffic and violence. Stadiums are most often encircled by lower cost neighborhoods and a difficult drive to get to. The game is too expensive and not dramatic enough at 162 games to warrant the time and money spent to go to a game when you can just watch it from home.

4. Other points made about corporate sponsors.

You have GOT to be kidding.

Several of those points are good points, rat.

The only one remotely valid is #4. We've beaten #3 to death; going to a baseball game downtown is perfectly safe if you use common sense. The first two? Turn the cable news off.

Are you then stating that there was no fall out to the following events just to name a couple

1. The great kneeling of Kapernick on the sidelines.
2. MLB celebrating gay nights and BLM type issues on the mounds.

I happen to remember millions of forums and posts talking about stepping away from pro sports because of just #1 alone. Deny all you want but there has been a plan in place to erode our society. Not just here but elsewhere. I will not go further as we are told to not discuss politics, but I do believe it has had a big effect on attendance which is the topic of this thread. People are just not that into the pro sports anymore other than as a vehicle to get their kids a payday one day if they have the skills. It is a shame as it has eroded great programs in schools for sports and music of which both are great assets to humans and children in their development. Just take for example participation trophies. Being the best at something once meant something. if you failed then be better next time through practice and hard work. Do not cry about it but get motivated to be better. That got turned into "Oh gee you competed and you cannot be better than Joey because it hurts his feelings." When you look at the big picture you cannot unsee it all.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:08 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:02 am

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 10:37 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:35 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:27 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:24 am Baseball in St. Louis was near dead in the late '70's. Mr. Busch hired Whitey Herzog on a handshake and beer. Whitey made moves to improve the defense, team speed and brought excitement back to Cardinal baseball.

It's not always about spending money; it's about having someone in charge that knows what they are doing. Overpriced tickets, concessions and giving away bobble heads does not bring fans into the park, exciting baseball does.

Cardinal management has gotten stale relying on past performance and not in making good player moves to keep the team exciting for the fans.

This is my opinion from a fan, not a businessman.

You’re saying exciting baseball brings the crowd. By that thinking the dodgers and Blue Jays should lead the attendance sheet. And the other post season teams right behind them.

I checked. At 2.7 million and above- SD, Atlanta Philly Mets cubs Dodgers Boston Yanks

Los Angeles Dodgers: 35,703
San Diego Padres: 34,500
New York Yankees: 33,000
Philadelphia Phillies: 32,500
New York Mets: 32,000
Chicago Cubs: 31,500
Atlanta Braves: 31,000
San Francisco Giants: 30,500
Boston Red Sox: 30,000
Houston Astros: 29,500
Toronto Blue Jays: 29,000
Los Angeles Angels: 28,500
Milwaukee Brewers: 28,000
Texas Rangers: 27,500
Colorado Rockies: 27,000
Detroit Tigers: 26,500
St. Louis Cardinals: 26,000

Five of the first six were post season.

Look at the size of the markets.

Thank you , Cranny ! For years now, I don't understand how fans compare stadium attendance of various clubs and not consider the vast difference in metro populations of each. When I brought that up to a buddy a couple years ago, his reply was well NY, LA, and Chicago have TWO teams . My reply to that was .. Well NY has a metro pop. over 20+M , LA has 13-18 M, chicago 9.6-9.9 M while St. Louis has 2.8 M
Even with two MLB teams those 3 markets alone have a range of 10 times to nearly 4 times as many people to draw from to attend games.
It's the same with TV monies generated by teams. LAD get $334M per in their deal with Spectrum while the Cardinals get $50? M maybe from their revised deal in St. Louis after Bally bankruptcy. Some falsely think that a team in St. Louis should be able to go toe to toe financially with the 'big boy' market teams . Under the current system, that is pie in the sky .

Walk me through the Padres’ TV deal and how it compares to the Cardinals’. I’m with you on the Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees but there’s no excuse to not do what the Padres do.

The Padres are owned by a private equity group that has access ro almost unlimited funds. They bought Rawlings Sporting Goods not too long ago.

So that therefore means they're deficit spending? You don't know that any more than I do.

What we DO know: according to Spotrac, the Padres earned $432 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (10th), and spent $275 million on payroll in 2025 (6th). That's 63.8% of revenues.

The Cardinals earned $373 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (15th), and spent $160 million on payroll in 2025 (18th). That's 42.9% of revenues.

Now before you go off on debt service and EBITDA and capital calls, look at that from the perspective of the paying customer who's been loyal for decades. They see teams that have no local TV deals at all spending over 20% more of their revenue on investing back into the team. Hell, they see the ATHLETICS spending a higher percentage of revenue on payroll. And your message is, "lower your expectations, the guy wants to make money?" If the Cardinals spent even HALF their revenues on payroll that's an additional $26.5 million in 2025. That's a pitcher. That's a bat that gets them the last few games they need to make the playoffs and share in that revenue.

The system is broken. It needs fixed. Bill DeWitt is cheaping out. Both are indisputable.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 16:45 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:08 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:02 am

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 10:37 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:35 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:27 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:24 am Baseball in St. Louis was near dead in the late '70's. Mr. Busch hired Whitey Herzog on a handshake and beer. Whitey made moves to improve the defense, team speed and brought excitement back to Cardinal baseball.

It's not always about spending money; it's about having someone in charge that knows what they are doing. Overpriced tickets, concessions and giving away bobble heads does not bring fans into the park, exciting baseball does.

Cardinal management has gotten stale relying on past performance and not in making good player moves to keep the team exciting for the fans.

This is my opinion from a fan, not a businessman.

You’re saying exciting baseball brings the crowd. By that thinking the dodgers and Blue Jays should lead the attendance sheet. And the other post season teams right behind them.

I checked. At 2.7 million and above- SD, Atlanta Philly Mets cubs Dodgers Boston Yanks

Los Angeles Dodgers: 35,703
San Diego Padres: 34,500
New York Yankees: 33,000
Philadelphia Phillies: 32,500
New York Mets: 32,000
Chicago Cubs: 31,500
Atlanta Braves: 31,000
San Francisco Giants: 30,500
Boston Red Sox: 30,000
Houston Astros: 29,500
Toronto Blue Jays: 29,000
Los Angeles Angels: 28,500
Milwaukee Brewers: 28,000
Texas Rangers: 27,500
Colorado Rockies: 27,000
Detroit Tigers: 26,500
St. Louis Cardinals: 26,000

Five of the first six were post season.

Look at the size of the markets.

Thank you , Cranny ! For years now, I don't understand how fans compare stadium attendance of various clubs and not consider the vast difference in metro populations of each. When I brought that up to a buddy a couple years ago, his reply was well NY, LA, and Chicago have TWO teams . My reply to that was .. Well NY has a metro pop. over 20+M , LA has 13-18 M, chicago 9.6-9.9 M while St. Louis has 2.8 M
Even with two MLB teams those 3 markets alone have a range of 10 times to nearly 4 times as many people to draw from to attend games.
It's the same with TV monies generated by teams. LAD get $334M per in their deal with Spectrum while the Cardinals get $50? M maybe from their revised deal in St. Louis after Bally bankruptcy. Some falsely think that a team in St. Louis should be able to go toe to toe financially with the 'big boy' market teams . Under the current system, that is pie in the sky .

Walk me through the Padres’ TV deal and how it compares to the Cardinals’. I’m with you on the Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees but there’s no excuse to not do what the Padres do.

The Padres are owned by a private equity group that has access ro almost unlimited funds. They bought Rawlings Sporting Goods not too long ago.

So that therefore means they're deficit spending? You don't know that any more than I do.

What we DO know: according to Spotrac, the Padres earned $432 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (10th), and spent $275 million on payroll in 2025 (6th). That's 63.8% of revenues.

The Cardinals earned $373 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (15th), and spent $160 million on payroll in 2025 (18th). That's 42.9% of revenues.

Now before you go off on debt service and EBITDA and capital calls, look at that from the perspective of the paying customer who's been loyal for decades. They see teams that have no local TV deals at all spending over 20% more of their revenue on investing back into the team. Hell, they see the ATHLETICS spending a higher percentage of revenue on payroll. And your message is, "lower your expectations, the guy wants to make money?" If the Cardinals spent even HALF their revenues on payroll that's an additional $26.5 million in 2025. That's a pitcher. That's a bat that gets them the last few games they need to make the playoffs and share in that revenue.

The system is broken. It needs fixed. Bill DeWitt is cheaping out. Both are indisputable.

Do you have any idea how big the overall Cardinal Organization is? And how incredibly expensive it is to own
a MLB franchise. I really don't think you have any idea.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 17:04 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 16:45 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:08 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:02 am

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 10:37 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:35 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:27 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:24 am Baseball in St. Louis was near dead in the late '70's. Mr. Busch hired Whitey Herzog on a handshake and beer. Whitey made moves to improve the defense, team speed and brought excitement back to Cardinal baseball.

It's not always about spending money; it's about having someone in charge that knows what they are doing. Overpriced tickets, concessions and giving away bobble heads does not bring fans into the park, exciting baseball does.

Cardinal management has gotten stale relying on past performance and not in making good player moves to keep the team exciting for the fans.

This is my opinion from a fan, not a businessman.

You’re saying exciting baseball brings the crowd. By that thinking the dodgers and Blue Jays should lead the attendance sheet. And the other post season teams right behind them.

I checked. At 2.7 million and above- SD, Atlanta Philly Mets cubs Dodgers Boston Yanks

Los Angeles Dodgers: 35,703
San Diego Padres: 34,500
New York Yankees: 33,000
Philadelphia Phillies: 32,500
New York Mets: 32,000
Chicago Cubs: 31,500
Atlanta Braves: 31,000
San Francisco Giants: 30,500
Boston Red Sox: 30,000
Houston Astros: 29,500
Toronto Blue Jays: 29,000
Los Angeles Angels: 28,500
Milwaukee Brewers: 28,000
Texas Rangers: 27,500
Colorado Rockies: 27,000
Detroit Tigers: 26,500
St. Louis Cardinals: 26,000

Five of the first six were post season.

Look at the size of the markets.

Thank you , Cranny ! For years now, I don't understand how fans compare stadium attendance of various clubs and not consider the vast difference in metro populations of each. When I brought that up to a buddy a couple years ago, his reply was well NY, LA, and Chicago have TWO teams . My reply to that was .. Well NY has a metro pop. over 20+M , LA has 13-18 M, chicago 9.6-9.9 M while St. Louis has 2.8 M
Even with two MLB teams those 3 markets alone have a range of 10 times to nearly 4 times as many people to draw from to attend games.
It's the same with TV monies generated by teams. LAD get $334M per in their deal with Spectrum while the Cardinals get $50? M maybe from their revised deal in St. Louis after Bally bankruptcy. Some falsely think that a team in St. Louis should be able to go toe to toe financially with the 'big boy' market teams . Under the current system, that is pie in the sky .

Walk me through the Padres’ TV deal and how it compares to the Cardinals’. I’m with you on the Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees but there’s no excuse to not do what the Padres do.

The Padres are owned by a private equity group that has access ro almost unlimited funds. They bought Rawlings Sporting Goods not too long ago.

So that therefore means they're deficit spending? You don't know that any more than I do.

What we DO know: according to Spotrac, the Padres earned $432 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (10th), and spent $275 million on payroll in 2025 (6th). That's 63.8% of revenues.

The Cardinals earned $373 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (15th), and spent $160 million on payroll in 2025 (18th). That's 42.9% of revenues.

Now before you go off on debt service and EBITDA and capital calls, look at that from the perspective of the paying customer who's been loyal for decades. They see teams that have no local TV deals at all spending over 20% more of their revenue on investing back into the team. Hell, they see the ATHLETICS spending a higher percentage of revenue on payroll. And your message is, "lower your expectations, the guy wants to make money?" If the Cardinals spent even HALF their revenues on payroll that's an additional $26.5 million in 2025. That's a pitcher. That's a bat that gets them the last few games they need to make the playoffs and share in that revenue.

The system is broken. It needs fixed. Bill DeWitt is cheaping out. Both are indisputable.

Do you have any idea how big the overall Cardinal Organization is? And how incredibly expensive it is to own
a MLB franchise. I really don't think you have any idea.

Neither do you. Say what you want, but there’s no excuse for spending less of your baseball revenue on payroll than the Athletics. None. If it’s too (drat) expensive to own a MLB franchise, why doesn’t he sell?

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 17:30 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 17:04 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 16:45 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:08 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:02 am

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 10:37 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:35 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:27 am


You’re saying exciting baseball brings the crowd. By that thinking the dodgers and Blue Jays should lead the attendance sheet. And the other post season teams right behind them.

I checked. At 2.7 million and above- SD, Atlanta Philly Mets cubs Dodgers Boston Yanks

Los Angeles Dodgers: 35,703
San Diego Padres: 34,500
New York Yankees: 33,000
Philadelphia Phillies: 32,500
New York Mets: 32,000
Chicago Cubs: 31,500
Atlanta Braves: 31,000
San Francisco Giants: 30,500
Boston Red Sox: 30,000
Houston Astros: 29,500
Toronto Blue Jays: 29,000
Los Angeles Angels: 28,500
Milwaukee Brewers: 28,000
Texas Rangers: 27,500
Colorado Rockies: 27,000
Detroit Tigers: 26,500
St. Louis Cardinals: 26,000

Five of the first six were post season.

Look at the size of the markets.

Thank you , Cranny ! For years now, I don't understand how fans compare stadium attendance of various clubs and not consider the vast difference in metro populations of each. When I brought that up to a buddy a couple years ago, his reply was well NY, LA, and Chicago have TWO teams . My reply to that was .. Well NY has a metro pop. over 20+M , LA has 13-18 M, chicago 9.6-9.9 M while St. Louis has 2.8 M
Even with two MLB teams those 3 markets alone have a range of 10 times to nearly 4 times as many people to draw from to attend games.
It's the same with TV monies generated by teams. LAD get $334M per in their deal with Spectrum while the Cardinals get $50? M maybe from their revised deal in St. Louis after Bally bankruptcy. Some falsely think that a team in St. Louis should be able to go toe to toe financially with the 'big boy' market teams . Under the current system, that is pie in the sky .

Walk me through the Padres’ TV deal and how it compares to the Cardinals’. I’m with you on the Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees but there’s no excuse to not do what the Padres do.

The Padres are owned by a private equity group that has access ro almost unlimited funds. They bought Rawlings Sporting Goods not too long ago.

So that therefore means they're deficit spending? You don't know that any more than I do.

What we DO know: according to Spotrac, the Padres earned $432 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (10th), and spent $275 million on payroll in 2025 (6th). That's 63.8% of revenues.

The Cardinals earned $373 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (15th), and spent $160 million on payroll in 2025 (18th). That's 42.9% of revenues.

Now before you go off on debt service and EBITDA and capital calls, look at that from the perspective of the paying customer who's been loyal for decades. They see teams that have no local TV deals at all spending over 20% more of their revenue on investing back into the team. Hell, they see the ATHLETICS spending a higher percentage of revenue on payroll. And your message is, "lower your expectations, the guy wants to make money?" If the Cardinals spent even HALF their revenues on payroll that's an additional $26.5 million in 2025. That's a pitcher. That's a bat that gets them the last few games they need to make the playoffs and share in that revenue.

The system is broken. It needs fixed. Bill DeWitt is cheaping out. Both are indisputable.

Do you have any idea how big the overall Cardinal Organization is? And how incredibly expensive it is to own
a MLB franchise. I really don't think you have any idea.

Neither do you. Say what you want, but there’s no excuse for spending less of your baseball revenue on payroll than the Athletics. None. If it’s too (drat) expensive to own a MLB franchise, why doesn’t he sell?

I think I do more than you. Why don't you take a minute to Google "Cardinal Front Office Directory" and come back to the forum with your thoughts. And while you're at it, look up who pays the compensation of all the minor leagues players at all levels.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:08 pm I can't spend time trying to explain something to someone who either can't or won't understand.

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:13 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:08 pm I can't spend time trying to explain something to someone who either can't or won't understand.

What a cope out from a company man who is not a fan.

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 17:43 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 17:30 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 17:04 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 16:45 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:08 am

ramfandan wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 11:02 am

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 10:37 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:36 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:35 am

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 08:33 am

Los Angeles Dodgers: 35,703
San Diego Padres: 34,500
New York Yankees: 33,000
Philadelphia Phillies: 32,500
New York Mets: 32,000
Chicago Cubs: 31,500
Atlanta Braves: 31,000
San Francisco Giants: 30,500
Boston Red Sox: 30,000
Houston Astros: 29,500
Toronto Blue Jays: 29,000
Los Angeles Angels: 28,500
Milwaukee Brewers: 28,000
Texas Rangers: 27,500
Colorado Rockies: 27,000
Detroit Tigers: 26,500
St. Louis Cardinals: 26,000

Five of the first six were post season.

Look at the size of the markets.

Thank you , Cranny ! For years now, I don't understand how fans compare stadium attendance of various clubs and not consider the vast difference in metro populations of each. When I brought that up to a buddy a couple years ago, his reply was well NY, LA, and Chicago have TWO teams . My reply to that was .. Well NY has a metro pop. over 20+M , LA has 13-18 M, chicago 9.6-9.9 M while St. Louis has 2.8 M
Even with two MLB teams those 3 markets alone have a range of 10 times to nearly 4 times as many people to draw from to attend games.
It's the same with TV monies generated by teams. LAD get $334M per in their deal with Spectrum while the Cardinals get $50? M maybe from their revised deal in St. Louis after Bally bankruptcy. Some falsely think that a team in St. Louis should be able to go toe to toe financially with the 'big boy' market teams . Under the current system, that is pie in the sky .

Walk me through the Padres’ TV deal and how it compares to the Cardinals’. I’m with you on the Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees but there’s no excuse to not do what the Padres do.

The Padres are owned by a private equity group that has access ro almost unlimited funds. They bought Rawlings Sporting Goods not too long ago.

So that therefore means they're deficit spending? You don't know that any more than I do.

What we DO know: according to Spotrac, the Padres earned $432 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (10th), and spent $275 million on payroll in 2025 (6th). That's 63.8% of revenues.

The Cardinals earned $373 million in baseball revenue in 2024 (15th), and spent $160 million on payroll in 2025 (18th). That's 42.9% of revenues.

Now before you go off on debt service and EBITDA and capital calls, look at that from the perspective of the paying customer who's been loyal for decades. They see teams that have no local TV deals at all spending over 20% more of their revenue on investing back into the team. Hell, they see the ATHLETICS spending a higher percentage of revenue on payroll. And your message is, "lower your expectations, the guy wants to make money?" If the Cardinals spent even HALF their revenues on payroll that's an additional $26.5 million in 2025. That's a pitcher. That's a bat that gets them the last few games they need to make the playoffs and share in that revenue.

The system is broken. It needs fixed. Bill DeWitt is cheaping out. Both are indisputable.

Do you have any idea how big the overall Cardinal Organization is? And how incredibly expensive it is to own
a MLB franchise. I really don't think you have any idea.

Neither do you. Say what you want, but there’s no excuse for spending less of your baseball revenue on payroll than the Athletics. None. If it’s too (drat) expensive to own a MLB franchise, why doesn’t he sell?

I think I do more than you. Why don't you take a minute to Google "Cardinal Front Office Directory" and come back to the forum with your thoughts. And while you're at it, look up who pays the compensation of all the minor leagues players at all levels.

Guess what? ALL major league teams have front offices. All of them pay the compensation of all their minor leaguers. ALL OF THEM! And yet, 17 teams -- including the A's, who are literally HOMELESS -- spend more of their revenue on major-league payroll.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:16 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:13 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:08 pm I can't spend time trying to explain something to someone who either can't or won't understand.

What a cope out from a company man who is not a fan.

Your posts mean nothing anymore, Red. Just like your troll tag team partner. It's obvious all you're trying to do is
badger me, which adds absolutely nothing to this forum.

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:16 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:13 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑04 Nov 2025 18:08 pm I can't spend time trying to explain something to someone who either can't or won't understand.

What a cope out from a company man who is not a fan.

Your posts mean nothing anymore, Red. Just like your troll tag team partner. It's obvious all you're trying to do is
badger me, which adds absolutely nothing to this forum.