For the Matheny haters

[An Old Friend]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

[Cranny]

I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Let’s be real: MM gets bad marks as an in-game manager and Cranny is trying to weasel out of admitting that.

Are you an expert on baseball team management, Ecleme?
If so, what are your credentials?

[ecleme22]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

[ecleme22]

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

394 players had at least 150 plate appearances in 2016.
Tommy Pham was 394th in strikeout rate at 38.8%

So…can’t even be used as a def replacement?

[Cranny]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

Your credentials, Ecleme?

[ecleme22]

I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Let’s be real: MM gets bad marks as an in-game manager and Cranny is trying to weasel out of admitting that.

Are you an expert on baseball team management, Ecleme?
If so, what are your credentials?

Cranny still weaselin’

[An Old Friend]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

Some names… without context. If this was a test question, you obviously fail.

Want to take another shot at answering the whole question? No idea who 3 of those guys even are with only a last name listed.

[An Old Friend]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

Your credentials, Ecleme?

ecleme probably thinks the 2015 team should’ve won 120 games instead of only 100

[Stlcardsblues]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

Sat here for years saying people were misguiding their complaints against Matheny and that Mo was the issue. People kept telling me firing Matheny would fix our issues. Now they have seen I was correct that Mo was a massive issue.

Matheny still was a problem….

Not to the level people made him out to be. People were ticked Francona didn’t get the job. They were so blinded with Matheny hate to see how Mo was destroying what was built.

He will never be confused with a great manager, but people made him out to sound worse than he was.

[Cranny]

I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Let’s be real: MM gets bad marks as an in-game manager and Cranny is trying to weasel out of admitting that.

Are you an expert on baseball team management, Ecleme?
If so, what are your credentials?

Cranny still weaselin’

I’ve said that I’m not qualified to critique manager’s moves. I’ve asked for the managerial credentials of several posters who think they know better than Mike Matheny, Oli, etc. None have come forward yet.

[ecleme22]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

Some names… without context. If this was a test question, you obviously fail.

Want to take another shot at answering the whole question? No idea who 3 of those guys even are with only a last name listed.

Well, learn more baseball

[ecleme22]

I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Let’s be real: MM gets bad marks as an in-game manager and Cranny is trying to weasel out of admitting that.

Are you an expert on baseball team management, Ecleme?
If so, what are your credentials?

Cranny still weaselin’

I’ve said that I’m not qualified to critique manager’s moves. I’ve asked for the managerial credentials of several posters who think they know better than Mike Matheny, Oli, etc. None have come forward yet.

Cranny still weaselin’

[An Old Friend]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

Some names… without context. If this was a test question, you obviously fail.

Want to take another shot at answering the whole question? No idea who 3 of those guys even are with only a last name listed.

Well, learn more baseball

I said that I’m listening, so now it’s odd you won’t answer the question and are choosing not to support your statement.

Seriously, I’m listening. Tell me about these numerous examples. I’m curious.

[ecleme22]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.

McKeon
Thompson
Shildt
LaRussa
Martin
Mansolino

Some names… without context. If this was a test question, you obviously fail.

Want to take another shot at answering the whole question? No idea who 3 of those guys even are with only a last name listed.

Well, learn more baseball

I said that I’m listening, so now it’s odd you won’t answer the question and are choosing not to support your statement.

Seriously, I’m listening. Tell me about these numerous examples. I’m curious.

Look it up, Bud. I gave you a list.

[ScotchMIrish]

I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Let’s be real: MM gets bad marks as an in-game manager and Cranny is trying to weasel out of admitting that.

Scoreboard.

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

[ScotchMIrish]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

Sat here for years saying people were misguiding their complaints against Matheny and that Mo was the issue. People kept telling me firing Matheny would fix our issues. Now they have seen I was correct that Mo was a massive issue.

I think DeWitt was behind firing Matheny. He got entitlement mentality and thought 3 million fans a year was automatic. Kind of like Steinbrenner/Torre.