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ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:35 am

Shady wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:23 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:21 am Contreras is here through 2027 with club option for 2028. He strikes out to much for my liking and I'd prefer Burleson but I suppose it depends on multiple factors. Contreras is limited to 1B/DH. Burleson can apparently play RF. Do we have a better DH than either of those two? What is Burleson's best defensive position?

First base appears to be "Burleson's best defensive position".

It's also Contreras' only defensive position. Which is the better first baseman and does the team have a better DH than either of those two? Contreras strikes out too much and there is too much drama surrounding him for my liking but he isn't going anywhere until after the 2027 season.

Drama?

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:40 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:30 am

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I have compared, and on the Contrary, don't see why Burly should start against LHP's.
Your assuming Burleson gets better, while I'm not assuming that.
Blaze Jordan has hit LHP'ing very well to this point in his milb career, so a strict platoon between him and Burly might work, but again, I'd rather have a full time 1B like Contreras take up that spot on the roster than having 2 limited defensive slow guys if that's the choice given.

Burleson runs and plays first as good as Contreras. I just don't understand the love for Contreras an aging player who is very much over paid. And as I said before Burleson stats are as good if not better Contreras.

Burly runs? I kind of thought he just lumbered.

icon wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:46 am

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:40 am Burleson runs and plays first as good as Contreras. I just don't understand the love for Contreras an aging player who is very much over paid. And as I said before Burleson stats are as good if not better Contreras.

Burly runs? I kind of thought he just lumbered.

Sprint Speed:
Burleson: 25.4 (9th percentile)
Contreras: 27.5 (52nd percentile)

Fielding (at 1B):
Burleson: -1 OAA; 0 FRV (222 innings)
Contreras: +5 OAA; +4 FRV (835.1 innings)

I could see the Cards trading Contreras in the off season clearing 1B to either Burley or possibly Gorman.

redbirdfan51 wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 12:33 pm I could see the Cards trading Contreras in the off season clearing 1B to either Burley or possibly Gorman.

If I am trading for Contreras, it is to play him at catcher and not 1B. He has done a fine job at 1B, but his offensive production is ++ as a catcher. I've also never had a problem with his overall defense at catcher(other than that he isn't Yadi).

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:35 am

Shady wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:23 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:21 am Contreras is here through 2027 with club option for 2028. He strikes out to much for my liking and I'd prefer Burleson but I suppose it depends on multiple factors. Contreras is limited to 1B/DH. Burleson can apparently play RF. Do we have a better DH than either of those two? What is Burleson's best defensive position?

First base appears to be "Burleson's best defensive position".

It's also Contreras' only defensive position. Which is the better first baseman and does the team have a better DH than either of those two? Contreras strikes out too much and there is too much drama surrounding him for my liking but he isn't going anywhere until after the 2027 season.

WillyC
+5 OAA

Burly
-1 OAA

Equal w/"0" DRS

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:51 am

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

Get back to me when Burly does this over 400+ PAs

.272 .355 .533 .888

It will never happen.

I know all about "potential". I am Basil Shabazz. Google it.

WC himself will be challenged to match those numbers.
He did that over a 105 game season. I think the thought, my thought, he'd put up
higher counting numbers by playing in another months worth of games. Maybe closer to
his career 162 game average of 143 H, 32 2B, 2 3B, 26 HR, 255 TB's and subtract maybe 15 games.
There was also some thought that subtracting the rigors of catching might help.

We'll see, I maybe not the HR's but the others should get surpassed.

Currently the TB are close between the two 182 for WC to 171 for AB. WC has 60 more PA's.
WC should surpass his career high but might not get that 162 avg of 255. AB is
questionable if he surpasses his career high of 230 last season.

WC is clearly the more accomplished hitter. There's room for both to exist.
Whatever can improve the team, I'm for whether both are on it or gone. Going forward,
We might be seeing the 2 being closer in production of HR's and TB than I would have anticipated.
Those are basic counting STAT's but are a weakness of the team.

The Cubs have 4 guys over 190 TB's. NL playoff teams all have 2 guys at 200+ TB, Ohtani is near 300.
On the Cardinals AB is the most accomplished corner outfielder in that regard. I'd keep him
until proven better is on the roster. Lars is second at 139.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:35 am

Shady wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:23 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:21 am Contreras is here through 2027 with club option for 2028. He strikes out to much for my liking and I'd prefer Burleson but I suppose it depends on multiple factors. Contreras is limited to 1B/DH. Burleson can apparently play RF. Do we have a better DH than either of those two? What is Burleson's best defensive position?

First base appears to be "Burleson's best defensive position".

It's also Contreras' only defensive position. Which is the better first baseman and does the team have a better DH than either of those two? Contreras strikes out too much and there is too much drama surrounding him for my liking but he isn't going anywhere until after the 2027 season.

WillyC
+5 OAA

Burly
-1 OAA

Equal w/"0" DRS

I have no idea what that sabermetrics stuff means. All I know is Contreras strikes out too much.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 15:16 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:35 am

Shady wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:23 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 10:21 am Contreras is here through 2027 with club option for 2028. He strikes out to much for my liking and I'd prefer Burleson but I suppose it depends on multiple factors. Contreras is limited to 1B/DH. Burleson can apparently play RF. Do we have a better DH than either of those two? What is Burleson's best defensive position?

First base appears to be "Burleson's best defensive position".

It's also Contreras' only defensive position. Which is the better first baseman and does the team have a better DH than either of those two? Contreras strikes out too much and there is too much drama surrounding him for my liking but he isn't going anywhere until after the 2027 season.

WillyC
+5 OAA

Burly
-1 OAA

Equal w/"0" DRS

I have no idea what that sabermetrics stuff means. All I know is Contreras strikes out too much.

No, he really doesn’t.

Quit obsessing over Ks.

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I can agree to a lesser extent the cardinals won't win with contreras at 1b either --- the problem isn't who is here the current problem is we have no one better to plug in. Contreras was paid to produce these numbers while catching, that he is the best offensive producer right now is the organizations fault.

Shady wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 09:14 am

Wattage wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:54 am

Dazepster wrote: ↑13 Aug 2025 20:23 pm Not enough XBH for a 1B. Unless get a lot of that elsewhere and he is simply an OBP and Runs contributor. The Running part is a bit problematic.

In the Old Days and not really that long ago. He would be a situational pinch hitter off the bench. Occasional start at 1B. OF only by absolute necessity.

I like him. A lot. He can hit a bit. But lacks Power for a dude that big. Surprising with his contact skills he doesn't have 30 plus homers.

A Softball player that can hit a Baseball.

He one of the weakest bats on your team, you got a good offense. If he is one of the best bats on your team, your offense sucks.

You move him. Possibly this very off-season.

I swear some people have delusional expectations for team offense and still think we are in 1999-2000 era of offense when the league average ops was .780 and avg .270

But its 2025. The league average ops is .719 and avg .246

The avg ops of 1b is like .748.
6 of the 12 playoff teams have a worse hitting 1b than burleson.

The dodgers have freaking conforto in their every day lineup hitting .187, .299, .327 .626 with 9 homeruns and 25 rbis

The brewers have joey ortiz with .617 ops starting everyday

Theres a few other playoff teams with similar .650 or below bats. No freaking team is gonna have alec burleson as their worse bat on the team.

Heck, laars freaking nootbaar probably wouldnt even be the worst hitter on any team in the majors.

Burleson isnt gonna carry an offense as he isnt a goldy arenado type(prime not current version), and im fine with moving him if return is there, but these expectations some of you write like burlesons numbers right now are of a bench bat and that hed be the worst hitter on some teams are downright laughable.

The Burleson critics might need to focus more on Walker, Gorman, Nootbaar and Arenado. Burleson's production actually looks pretty good by comparison.

No we don’t. We know they suck too. Are you saying he’s good because many others on this team sucks too?

greyhawk wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 15:52 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I can agree to a lesser extent the cardinals won't win with contreras at 1b either --- the problem isn't who is here the current problem is we have no one better to plug in. Contreras was paid to produce these numbers while catching, that he is the best offensive producer right now is the organizations fault.

That was the big mistake. Not everybody can do what Molina did which is catch into their mid 30's. Now we have below average offense at 2 positions due to that decision.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 19:22 pm

greyhawk wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 15:52 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I can agree to a lesser extent the cardinals won't win with contreras at 1b either --- the problem isn't who is here the current problem is we have no one better to plug in. Contreras was paid to produce these numbers while catching, that he is the best offensive producer right now is the organizations fault.

That was the big mistake. Not everybody can do what Molina did which is catch into their mid 30's. Now we have below average offense at 2 positions due to that decision.

Let us not forget that WC’s move to 1b was supposed to coincide with Herrera taking over the majority of catching.

Also, WC does have a 121 ops+. It’s not like he’s not having a solid year

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 20:54 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 19:22 pm

greyhawk wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 15:52 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I can agree to a lesser extent the cardinals won't win with contreras at 1b either --- the problem isn't who is here the current problem is we have no one better to plug in. Contreras was paid to produce these numbers while catching, that he is the best offensive producer right now is the organizations fault.

That was the big mistake. Not everybody can do what Molina did which is catch into their mid 30's. Now we have below average offense at 2 positions due to that decision.

Let us not forget that WC’s move to 1b was supposed to coincide with Herrera taking over the majority of catching.

Also, WC does have a 121 ops+. It’s not like he’s not having a solid year

Simple mistake of moving the wrong C to 1B.
Happens all the time.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 20:54 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 19:22 pm

greyhawk wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 15:52 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I can agree to a lesser extent the cardinals won't win with contreras at 1b either --- the problem isn't who is here the current problem is we have no one better to plug in. Contreras was paid to produce these numbers while catching, that he is the best offensive producer right now is the organizations fault.

That was the big mistake. Not everybody can do what Molina did which is catch into their mid 30's. Now we have below average offense at 2 positions due to that decision.

Let us not forget that WC’s move to 1b was supposed to coincide with Herrera taking over the majority of catching.

Also, WC does have a 121 ops+. It’s not like he’s not having a solid year

Let’s also remember WC’s 1st 12 games of 2025:
5 for 58 with 3 RBIs. That’s a .102 BA /.170 obp /.143 SLG and .313 ops.

Since April 9th, his BA is .283. His OPS? Don’t know, but i would guess it’s around a 55 point swing, putting his OPS since 4/9 at around .840-.845.

So if you have been watching the Cards for the last four months, you have seen a team with a first baseman PUTTING UP FIRST BASEMAN NUMBERS.

Contreras, maybe after shaking off the nerves of playing a new position, has been a big asset…

ecleme22 wrote: ↑15 Aug 2025 07:36 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 20:54 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 19:22 pm

greyhawk wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 15:52 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:21 am

JDW wrote: ↑14 Aug 2025 08:13 am Possibly a Burly/Jordan strict platoon at 1B might be ok, but then you have 2 limited defensive players taking up 2 spots on the 26 instead of getting similar 1B production in 1 player named Contreras.
Like many players, Burly has some value while he's cost controlled, but likely not much once he starts costing real money.

Taking off his Burlesque glasses once in a while might help with the OP's objectivity, but that'd be assuming he has the capability of objectivity, which we've seen little evidence for.

You need to check Burleson's stats from last year and this year. He has the potential to be much better offensively than Contrares has been at any point in his career.

I can agree to a lesser extent the cardinals won't win with contreras at 1b either --- the problem isn't who is here the current problem is we have no one better to plug in. Contreras was paid to produce these numbers while catching, that he is the best offensive producer right now is the organizations fault.

That was the big mistake. Not everybody can do what Molina did which is catch into their mid 30's. Now we have below average offense at 2 positions due to that decision.

Let us not forget that WC’s move to 1b was supposed to coincide with Herrera taking over the majority of catching.

Also, WC does have a 121 ops+. It’s not like he’s not having a solid year

Let’s also remember WC’s 1st 12 games of 2025:
5 for 58 with 3 RBIs. That’s a .102 BA /.170 obp /.143 SLG and .313 ops.

Since April 9th, his BA is .283. His OPS? Don’t know, but i would guess it’s around a 55 point swing, putting his OPS since 4/9 at around .840-.845.

So if you have been watching the Cards for the last four months, you have seen a team with a first baseman PUTTING UP FIRST BASEMAN NUMBERS.

Contreras, maybe after shaking off the nerves of playing a new position, has been a big asset…

Good point on the transition to a new position, and like you said, he's been a good asset since.

Kind of a funny thought, but with how good Contreras has been at 1B, can't help but think he could learn to play a pretty good 3B also.
It'd be too much to ask at his age perhaps, but .................