OT: Arby's closes more locations

[rockondlouie]

To begin with, operating profit is not the same as "EBITDA". Operating profit is after Depreciation and Amortization, and before interest and taxes. Better known as "EBIT". The figures I saw, show the Cardinals with a valuation of $2.55 million and debt as 8% of valuation. Out of the operating profit, you need to take interest expense on the debt as well as any taxes. And then for cash flow purposes, factor in any annual principal reduction required by the bank(s). Since we don't know the interest rate and any principal reductions required, we have no idea how much of the OP is consumed by debt service each year.

$2.55 billion

Debt-to-Value is 7% (MLB league average is 10%), not 8% according to CNBC analyses of Forbes data.

Compared to their NLC rivals the Cardinals are in great financial shape:

Brewers/15%
Red & Pirates/10-11%
Scrubs/9-10%

Their EBITDA is estimated at $34M.

Going back to my banking days cranny I can tell you that's a financially healthy position the Cardinals find themselves in w/minimal leverage compared to their $2.55B valuation.

Crying poormouth is a joke.

Glad we have a former banker on here, rock. At least there are 2 of us now who understand that "operating income" is not a gross number available for increased player payroll. What do you think the total annual debt service may be including both principal and interest?

No clue

To even hazard a guess w/o seeing the last three years of statements would be foolish.

But from what Forbes and others have gleaned, the Cardinals are in great financial shape showing what I've said all along, BDWJr is a brilliant businessman.

I just hope he spends more in 2027 so we can acquire major league talent again and fans will start coming back to the ballpark in droves.

If I use 7% debt to value, I come out with debt of about $178,000,000. Using prime plus one as a rate on a revolver I come out with about $14,000, 000 in interest alone each year. If I use term debt on a 20 year amortization schedule, it's about $17,000,000 a year.

And what year are we using for the operating income number? As a banker, what would you advise your borrower if you saw their operating income decline (because of attendance and cable revenues) and debt service remain the same?

Doubt if the Cardinals are paying Prime + 1%, likely given the downtown connections they've been at prime, maybe prime + a half for some time.

2025

Same as he's doing

When sales drop, then so does spending.

Although the entertainment business is different when it comes to spending vs revenues.

RE:
Hollywood where movie & TV shows spend hundreds of millions up front before ever seeing a dime of ticket and ad revenue.

Dewitt is going to have to spend first (not crazy, just back to his $175-180M level) bringing in some "star" power to supplement the kids and stimulate fan interest and attendance.

But look at it as an upfront cost.

Like a manufacturer investing in machinery and equipment to make his widgets.

Bill's "machinery and equipment" (re: upfront cost) is going to be investing in major league star players.

Nothing crazy, but back to the $175-180M by 2028.

Several things. Do you think there's a cash call in the Cardinals LLC? And if they produce a profit, does the LLC have to disperse funds to cover the individual taxes members must pay on a pro rata basis?

No, from what I gather they're in a very solid financial position so I'd highly doubt they're in danger of getting a cash call.

And LLC's don't have to automatically disperse funds for members taxes but I've seen it done many times when I was in banking.

It really depends on the Cardinals operating agreement how this is handled.

From what I gather they're in a very solid financial position.

Bill saw what was coming (declining attendance and the new CBA) which is why he started slashing payroll after the 2024 season.

With a payroll now under $110M and heading much lower (after Donovan, JoJo, NADO and possibly Noot are dealt).

Too many individual tax situation factors to make an educated guess on how they handle profit distribution via dividends.

They could have the LLC pay their tax bill or the individuals could handle it themselves.

You'd have to know the operating agreement, ask their CPA's and/or tax attorneys about taxes but I'd bet they've taken measures to limit their tax burden and the LLC likely pays it on a pro rata basis.

[Cranny]

To begin with, operating profit is not the same as "EBITDA". Operating profit is after Depreciation and Amortization, and before interest and taxes. Better known as "EBIT". The figures I saw, show the Cardinals with a valuation of $2.55 million and debt as 8% of valuation. Out of the operating profit, you need to take interest expense on the debt as well as any taxes. And then for cash flow purposes, factor in any annual principal reduction required by the bank(s). Since we don't know the interest rate and any principal reductions required, we have no idea how much of the OP is consumed by debt service each year.

$2.55 billion

Debt-to-Value is 7% (MLB league average is 10%), not 8% according to CNBC analyses of Forbes data.

Compared to their NLC rivals the Cardinals are in great financial shape:

Brewers/15%
Red & Pirates/10-11%
Scrubs/9-10%

Their EBITDA is estimated at $34M.

Going back to my banking days cranny I can tell you that's a financially healthy position the Cardinals find themselves in w/minimal leverage compared to their $2.55B valuation.

Crying poormouth is a joke.

Glad we have a former banker on here, rock. At least there are 2 of us now who understand that "operating income" is not a gross number available for increased player payroll. What do you think the total annual debt service may be including both principal and interest?

No clue

To even hazard a guess w/o seeing the last three years of statements would be foolish.

But from what Forbes and others have gleaned, the Cardinals are in great financial shape showing what I've said all along, BDWJr is a brilliant businessman.

I just hope he spends more in 2027 so we can acquire major league talent again and fans will start coming back to the ballpark in droves.

If I use 7% debt to value, I come out with debt of about $178,000,000. Using prime plus one as a rate on a revolver I come out with about $14,000, 000 in interest alone each year. If I use term debt on a 20 year amortization schedule, it's about $17,000,000 a year.

And what year are we using for the operating income number? As a banker, what would you advise your borrower if you saw their operating income decline (because of attendance and cable revenues) and debt service remain the same?

Doubt if the Cardinals are paying Prime + 1%, likely given the downtown connections they've been at prime, maybe prime + a half for some time.

2025

Same as he's doing

When sales drop, then so does spending.

Although the entertainment business is different when it comes to spending vs revenues.

RE:
Hollywood where movie & TV shows spend hundreds of millions up front before ever seeing a dime of ticket and ad revenue.

Dewitt is going to have to spend first (not crazy, just back to his $175-180M level) bringing in some "star" power to supplement the kids and stimulate fan interest and attendance.

But look at it as an upfront cost.

Like a manufacturer investing in machinery and equipment to make his widgets.

Bill's "machinery and equipment" (re: upfront cost) is going to be investing in major league star players.

Nothing crazy, but back to the $175-180M by 2028.

Several things. Do you think there's a cash call in the Cardinals LLC? And if they produce a profit, does the LLC have to disperse funds to cover the individual taxes members must pay on a pro rata basis?

No, from what I gather they're in a very solid financial position so I'd highly doubt they're in danger of getting a cash call.

And LLC's don't have to automatically disperse funds for members taxes but I've seen it done many times when I was in banking.

It really depends on the Cardinals operating agreement how this is handled.

From what I gather they're in a very solid financial position.

Bill saw what was coming (declining attendance and the new CBA) which is why he started slashing payroll after the 2024 season.

With a payroll now under $110M and heading much lower (after Donovan, JoJo, NADO and possibly Noot are dealt).

Too many individual tax situation factors to make an educated guess on how they handle profit distribution via dividends.

They could have the LLC pay their tax bill or the individuals could handle it themselves.

You'd have to know the operating agreement, ask their CPA's and/or tax attorneys about taxes but I'd bet they've taken measures to limit their tax burden and the LLC likely pays it on a pro rata basis.

Since you suggested an investment up front to increase revenues, I just wonder if BDW feels a bit reluctant to
ask the members to cough up more after their initial investment. It obviously hasn't been needed in the past.

[rockondlouie]

To begin with, operating profit is not the same as "EBITDA". Operating profit is after Depreciation and Amortization, and before interest and taxes. Better known as "EBIT". The figures I saw, show the Cardinals with a valuation of $2.55 million and debt as 8% of valuation. Out of the operating profit, you need to take interest expense on the debt as well as any taxes. And then for cash flow purposes, factor in any annual principal reduction required by the bank(s). Since we don't know the interest rate and any principal reductions required, we have no idea how much of the OP is consumed by debt service each year.

$2.55 billion

Debt-to-Value is 7% (MLB league average is 10%), not 8% according to CNBC analyses of Forbes data.

Compared to their NLC rivals the Cardinals are in great financial shape:

Brewers/15%
Red & Pirates/10-11%
Scrubs/9-10%

Their EBITDA is estimated at $34M.

Going back to my banking days cranny I can tell you that's a financially healthy position the Cardinals find themselves in w/minimal leverage compared to their $2.55B valuation.

Crying poormouth is a joke.

Glad we have a former banker on here, rock. At least there are 2 of us now who understand that "operating income" is not a gross number available for increased player payroll. What do you think the total annual debt service may be including both principal and interest?

No clue

To even hazard a guess w/o seeing the last three years of statements would be foolish.

But from what Forbes and others have gleaned, the Cardinals are in great financial shape showing what I've said all along, BDWJr is a brilliant businessman.

I just hope he spends more in 2027 so we can acquire major league talent again and fans will start coming back to the ballpark in droves.

If I use 7% debt to value, I come out with debt of about $178,000,000. Using prime plus one as a rate on a revolver I come out with about $14,000, 000 in interest alone each year. If I use term debt on a 20 year amortization schedule, it's about $17,000,000 a year.

And what year are we using for the operating income number? As a banker, what would you advise your borrower if you saw their operating income decline (because of attendance and cable revenues) and debt service remain the same?

Doubt if the Cardinals are paying Prime + 1%, likely given the downtown connections they've been at prime, maybe prime + a half for some time.

2025

Same as he's doing

When sales drop, then so does spending.

Although the entertainment business is different when it comes to spending vs revenues.

RE:
Hollywood where movie & TV shows spend hundreds of millions up front before ever seeing a dime of ticket and ad revenue.

Dewitt is going to have to spend first (not crazy, just back to his $175-180M level) bringing in some "star" power to supplement the kids and stimulate fan interest and attendance.

But look at it as an upfront cost.

Like a manufacturer investing in machinery and equipment to make his widgets.

Bill's "machinery and equipment" (re: upfront cost) is going to be investing in major league star players.

Nothing crazy, but back to the $175-180M by 2028.

Several things. Do you think there's a cash call in the Cardinals LLC? And if they produce a profit, does the LLC have to disperse funds to cover the individual taxes members must pay on a pro rata basis?

No, from what I gather they're in a very solid financial position so I'd highly doubt they're in danger of getting a cash call.

And LLC's don't have to automatically disperse funds for members taxes but I've seen it done many times when I was in banking.

It really depends on the Cardinals operating agreement how this is handled.

From what I gather they're in a very solid financial position.

Bill saw what was coming (declining attendance and the new CBA) which is why he started slashing payroll after the 2024 season.

With a payroll now under $110M and heading much lower (after Donovan, JoJo, NADO and possibly Noot are dealt).

Too many individual tax situation factors to make an educated guess on how they handle profit distribution via dividends.

They could have the LLC pay their tax bill or the individuals could handle it themselves.

You'd have to know the operating agreement, ask their CPA's and/or tax attorneys about taxes but I'd bet they've taken measures to limit their tax burden and the LLC likely pays it on a pro rata basis.

Since you suggested an investment up front to increase revenues, I just wonder if BDW feels a bit reluctant to
ask the members to cough up more after their initial investment. It obviously hasn't been needed in the past.

Not sure they'd have to do that cranny.

Unless the operating agreement calls for distributing all profits yearly they could have quite a war chest of retained earnings to draw from.

[Goldfan]

To begin with, operating profit is not the same as "EBITDA". Operating profit is after Depreciation and Amortization, and before interest and taxes. Better known as "EBIT". The figures I saw, show the Cardinals with a valuation of $2.55 million and debt as 8% of valuation. Out of the operating profit, you need to take interest expense on the debt as well as any taxes. And then for cash flow purposes, factor in any annual principal reduction required by the bank(s). Since we don't know the interest rate and any principal reductions required, we have no idea how much of the OP is consumed by debt service each year.

$2.55 billion

Debt-to-Value is 7% (MLB league average is 10%), not 8% according to CNBC analyses of Forbes data.

Compared to their NLC rivals the Cardinals are in great financial shape:

Brewers/15%
Red & Pirates/10-11%
Scrubs/9-10%

Their EBITDA is estimated at $34M.

Going back to my banking days cranny I can tell you that's a financially healthy position the Cardinals find themselves in w/minimal leverage compared to their $2.55B valuation.

Crying poormouth is a joke.

Glad we have a former banker on here, rock. At least there are 2 of us now who understand that "operating income" is not a gross number available for increased player payroll. What do you think the total annual debt service may be including both principal and interest?

The point of this comparison isn’t the minutia within the financial statement…..it’s that consistently through all these lists BDW Operating income is a magnitude larger than Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, PHil,….so however you want to spin the equation to get that Operating income number…it should be an apple to apple comparison for all the teams and up until the fans got REALLY TIRED of the MO show and stopped coming to games that positive # stood out. How is it that MUCH larger revenue base teams are so far under the Cards. Some of those clubs have double the revenue, more $$$ debt, and they spend to either almost 0 or in the RED

[imetsatchelpaige]

I find this all quite ironic.
He lost the Cardinals because he was old-school stubborn and myopic.
And a major fast food chain investment that lost its myopic way as well (sales down 8% last year, and losing customers fast).
Sound familiar?
Adapt or die, old man.

[Talkin' Baseball]

I find this all quite ironic.
He lost the Cardinals because he was old-school stubborn and myopic.
And a major fast food chain investment that lost its myopic way as well (sales down 8% last year, and losing customers fast).
Sound familiar?
Adapt or die, old man.

I'm trying to work through some of that myself.

[Cranny]

I find this all quite ironic.
He lost the Cardinals because he was old-school stubborn and myopic.
And a major fast food chain investment that lost its myopic way as well (sales down 8% last year, and losing customers fast).
Sound familiar?
Adapt or die, old man.

I'm trying to work through some of that myself.

A bit harsh from Satch.

[imetsatchelpaige]

I find this all quite ironic.
He lost the Cardinals because he was old-school stubborn and myopic.
And a major fast food chain investment that lost its myopic way as well (sales down 8% last year, and losing customers fast).
Sound familiar?
Adapt or die, old man.

I'm trying to work through some of that myself.

A bit harsh from Satch.

Only the last sentence Cranny.
The rest of it is spot on.
You can only shave payrolls and cheap beef for so long.

[Goldfan]

I find this all quite ironic.
He lost the Cardinals because he was old-school stubborn and myopic.
And a major fast food chain investment that lost its myopic way as well (sales down 8% last year, and losing customers fast).
Sound familiar?
Adapt or die, old man.

I'm trying to work through some of that myself.

A bit harsh from Satch.

Only the last sentence Cranny.
The rest of it is spot on.
You can only shave payrolls and cheap beef for so long.

Apparently BDW has been priced out of Cattle and MLB talent.