CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm
Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.
As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.
On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.
Thanks.
And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.
But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
So you think Bloom will be able to construct a starting squad of Homegrowners???? What is the probability of that??
They realistically need about 10 pre-ARB/ARB guys who are at least 2+ fWAR starting position players, starting pitchers, or a proven closer. And they need maybe 3 of those 10 to be better, like 3-4 fWAR.
Right now they have:
- Winn in the higher 3-4 fWAR category, so that's 1 of 3
- Herrera, Burleson, Donovan (unless traded), maybe Liberatore, maybe Scott, so best case that's about 5 of 7
So they need to add a 3-4 fWAR SP (e.g., Doyle), a 3-4 fWAR position player (Wetherholt). They need to have those guys actually producing at the ML level.
Then they need both Liberatore and Scott to get a bit better. And they need to see a couple of other guys (maybe Crooks, maybe McGreevy, maybe Svanson becoming a proven closer, maybe guys they get in trades this year, maybe Nootbaar bouncing back, Gorman, Walker, etc.) get into that solidly 2+ fWAR range.
And they need to have about eight solid pre-ARB/ARB bench players/relief pitchers - Romero (unless traded), O'Brien, Leahy, Graceffo, Saggese, Pages. So they need to find a few bench players/relief pitchers too.
They are good six or seven players short - at least 3 "high value" players and 3 "lower value" players short of the foundation they need. And they need a couple of those "high value" players to be a step higher than just OK.
It's going to take work and patience to get there, but getting Wetherholt and Doyle to the majors and playing up to their high potentials would be a key start. They need those two to be HRs.
Several of these things might have already been accomplished (or moved on to other options already) if we had the right manager. Oli is treading water with this roster and will continue to do so.
Whyever you think it is, it is.
All I know is that, unless Gorman and/or Walker have miraculous turnarounds and Liberatore becomes a #2/#3 SP, they are probably a couple of years away waiting for Wetherholt and Doyle to arrive before they can even start thinking about being competitive again.
I would counter with the fact, that they were competing this past year at different times, but the Cardinals continued to put Fedde, Pallante, and Mikolas on the mound in crucial games. Then injuries to Herrera, Donovan and Nootbaar set them back. Then they traded away key bullpen assets and brought back nothing to help the team down the stretch, and quite possibly never help them!
Removing Fedde and replacing him with McGreevey sooner would have made a difference. The Cardinals had two or three pitchers placed in Memphis as depth, but never used them. They obviously weren’t #1, #2, or even #3 starters, but wouldn’t any of them been better than Pallante? The Cardinals didn’t even try them. When Noot, Herrera and Donovan were out injured, who did the Cardinals replace them with? Valade, Hampson, and Church! The Cardinals said that they weren’t going to try and win, just see what the youngsters could do, and by golly that’s what they did. Even when the team played better than they expected, they still didn’t try and supplement the team. The Cardinals were not going to catch the Brewers, too many things fell into place for them, but they could have gotten in by the Wild Card and they DIDN’T TRY!
Now they tell us it’s going to be another 2 or 3 years before they are ready to go for it again. That just means after the lock out is over and “IF” DeWitt and other owners get their way and it won’t cost so much to compete.
However, if the owners don’t get their way, then I fully expect DeWitt to sell and get out!
The entire point here of this rebuild is (or should be) to get out of "let's be happy with trying to get a WC spot." The Cardinals have only made it past the 1st round of the playoffs once in the last 10 years.
The point should be to put the team back on a footing where they can seriously compete to make it to the NLCS and WS.
But to do that, they have to be able to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. - and they need a lot more young talent than they have to do that.
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm
Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.
As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.
On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.
Thanks.
And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.
But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
So you think Bloom will be able to construct a starting squad of Homegrowners???? What is the probability of that??
They realistically need about 10 pre-ARB/ARB guys who are at least 2+ fWAR starting position players, starting pitchers, or a proven closer. And they need maybe 3 of those 10 to be better, like 3-4 fWAR.
Right now they have:
- Winn in the higher 3-4 fWAR category, so that's 1 of 3
- Herrera, Burleson, Donovan (unless traded), maybe Liberatore, maybe Scott, so best case that's about 5 of 7
So they need to add a 3-4 fWAR SP (e.g., Doyle), a 3-4 fWAR position player (Wetherholt). They need to have those guys actually producing at the ML level.
Then they need both Liberatore and Scott to get a bit better. And they need to see a couple of other guys (maybe Crooks, maybe McGreevy, maybe Svanson becoming a proven closer, maybe guys they get in trades this year, maybe Nootbaar bouncing back, Gorman, Walker, etc.) get into that solidly 2+ fWAR range.
And they need to have about eight solid pre-ARB/ARB bench players/relief pitchers - Romero (unless traded), O'Brien, Leahy, Graceffo, Saggese, Pages. So they need to find a few bench players/relief pitchers too.
They are good six or seven players short - at least 3 "high value" players and 3 "lower value" players short of the foundation they need. And they need a couple of those "high value" players to be a step higher than just OK.
It's going to take work and patience to get there, but getting Wetherholt and Doyle to the majors and playing up to their high potentials would be a key start. They need those two to be HRs.
Several of these things might have already been accomplished (or moved on to other options already) if we had the right manager. Oli is treading water with this roster and will continue to do so.
Whyever you think it is, it is.
All I know is that, unless Gorman and/or Walker have miraculous turnarounds and Liberatore becomes a #2/#3 SP, they are probably a couple of years away waiting for Wetherholt and Doyle to arrive before they can even start thinking about being competitive again.
I would counter with the fact, that they were competing this past year at different times, but the Cardinals continued to put Fedde, Pallante, and Mikolas on the mound in crucial games. Then injuries to Herrera, Donovan and Nootbaar set them back. Then they traded away key bullpen assets and brought back nothing to help the team down the stretch, and quite possibly never help them!
Removing Fedde and replacing him with McGreevey sooner would have made a difference. The Cardinals had two or three pitchers placed in Memphis as depth, but never used them. They obviously weren’t #1, #2, or even #3 starters, but wouldn’t any of them been better than Pallante? The Cardinals didn’t even try them. When Noot, Herrera and Donovan were out injured, who did the Cardinals replace them with? Valade, Hampson, and Church! The Cardinals said that they weren’t going to try and win, just see what the youngsters could do, and by golly that’s what they did. Even when the team played better than they expected, they still didn’t try and supplement the team. The Cardinals were not going to catch the Brewers, too many things fell into place for them, but they could have gotten in by the Wild Card and they DIDN’T TRY!
Now they tell us it’s going to be another 2 or 3 years before they are ready to go for it again. That just means after the lock out is over and “IF” DeWitt and other owners get their way and it won’t cost so much to compete.
However, if the owners don’t get their way, then I fully expect DeWitt to sell and get out!
The entire point here of this rebuild is (or should be) to get out of "let's be happy with trying to get a WC spot." The Cardinals have only made it past the 1st round of the playoffs once in the last 10 years.
The point should be to put the team back on a footing where they can seriously compete to make it to the NLCS and WS.
But to do that, they have to be able to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. - and they need a lot more young talent than they have to do that.
And those years they were in contention…..it was glaringly obvious at the deadline the team required either another arm or bat….and Mo sat on his hands. I’m not really sure how cultivating an entire team on the farm grouped into your ascending WAR ranges is realistic or applicable to the incompetence we saw with our MO not being to produce a viable playoff run team.
The Cardinals ARE spending money today. They've invested heavily in upgrading minor league facilities and staffing.
They're apparently spending 20%+ more on MiLB staff, overhauled their training facility in Jupiter, upgraded their academy in the Dominican Republic, and put another $4mil in stadium renovations in Springfield.
It's hard to appreciate these things as they don't get seen the same way as MLB roster salaries. However, these types of investments are what could help the Cardinals build a strong farm system. The Brewers have done this path and it's worked great for them. But, unlike the Brewers, the Cardinals can spend more on payroll when they get on the brink of winning a WS again.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:16 pm
No need to change managers yet. Bloom probably couldn't get the guy he wants with the current roster. Give him time to build a stronger team. Then he will have a higher caliber of manager applicants.
The Manager and his coaching staff is WHO makes the roster stronger. And Oli isn't doing it. The young guys on the roster now don't have another year to wait and waste.
I agree a manager sets a tone, brings a culture, and adds an attitude to the team. And I prefer to see a change. But I dont think a top quality manager would be interested in this job right now. Bolster the roster and go find the guy.
why not? Bloom has the number 1 farm system and the brightest future in all of MLB according to some posters here. If true, shouldn't top managers Want to be a part of that? If not true, why are some fans blindly believing what baseball pros won't believe in?
Meanwhile we are just spinning our wheel every time we "bolster" the roster with a top rated prospect who makes their debut then can't find their footing due to Oli and his staff's lack of development guidance AFTER they actually make the majors.
Leadership comes first. Only then can talent develop to their true potential.
Last edited by Carp4Cy on 17 Nov 2025 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
TXCardsFanX wrote: ↑17 Nov 2025 08:38 am
The Cardinals ARE spending money today. They've invested heavily in upgrading minor league facilities and staffing.
They're apparently spending 20%+ more on MiLB staff, overhauled their training facility in Jupiter, upgraded their academy in the Dominican Republic, and put another $4mil in stadium renovations in Springfield.
It's hard to appreciate these things as they don't get seen the same way as MLB roster salaries.
That's because they cost less than 1/10th of what we are cutting MLB payroll. We don't have to do one or the other. Doing both better and now is possible if BDW weren't also just being cheap and pretending otherwise.
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm
Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.
As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.
On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.
Thanks.
And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.
But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
So you think Bloom will be able to construct a starting squad of Homegrowners???? What is the probability of that??
They realistically need about 10 pre-ARB/ARB guys who are at least 2+ fWAR starting position players, starting pitchers, or a proven closer. And they need maybe 3 of those 10 to be better, like 3-4 fWAR.
Right now they have:
- Winn in the higher 3-4 fWAR category, so that's 1 of 3
- Herrera, Burleson, Donovan (unless traded), maybe Liberatore, maybe Scott, so best case that's about 5 of 7
So they need to add a 3-4 fWAR SP (e.g., Doyle), a 3-4 fWAR position player (Wetherholt). They need to have those guys actually producing at the ML level.
Then they need both Liberatore and Scott to get a bit better. And they need to see a couple of other guys (maybe Crooks, maybe McGreevy, maybe Svanson becoming a proven closer, maybe guys they get in trades this year, maybe Nootbaar bouncing back, Gorman, Walker, etc.) get into that solidly 2+ fWAR range.
And they need to have about eight solid pre-ARB/ARB bench players/relief pitchers - Romero (unless traded), O'Brien, Leahy, Graceffo, Saggese, Pages. So they need to find a few bench players/relief pitchers too.
They are good six or seven players short - at least 3 "high value" players and 3 "lower value" players short of the foundation they need. And they need a couple of those "high value" players to be a step higher than just OK.
It's going to take work and patience to get there, but getting Wetherholt and Doyle to the majors and playing up to their high potentials would be a key start. They need those two to be HRs.
Several of these things might have already been accomplished (or moved on to other options already) if we had the right manager. Oli is treading water with this roster and will continue to do so.
Whyever you think it is, it is.
All I know is that, unless Gorman and/or Walker have miraculous turnarounds and Liberatore becomes a #2/#3 SP, they are probably a couple of years away waiting for Wetherholt and Doyle to arrive before they can even start thinking about being competitive again.
I would counter with the fact, that they were competing this past year at different times, but the Cardinals continued to put Fedde, Pallante, and Mikolas on the mound in crucial games. Then injuries to Herrera, Donovan and Nootbaar set them back. Then they traded away key bullpen assets and brought back nothing to help the team down the stretch, and quite possibly never help them!
Removing Fedde and replacing him with McGreevey sooner would have made a difference. The Cardinals had two or three pitchers placed in Memphis as depth, but never used them. They obviously weren’t #1, #2, or even #3 starters, but wouldn’t any of them been better than Pallante? The Cardinals didn’t even try them. When Noot, Herrera and Donovan were out injured, who did the Cardinals replace them with? Valade, Hampson, and Church! The Cardinals said that they weren’t going to try and win, just see what the youngsters could do, and by golly that’s what they did. Even when the team played better than they expected, they still didn’t try and supplement the team. The Cardinals were not going to catch the Brewers, too many things fell into place for them, but they could have gotten in by the Wild Card and they DIDN’T TRY!
Now they tell us it’s going to be another 2 or 3 years before they are ready to go for it again. That just means after the lock out is over and “IF” DeWitt and other owners get their way and it won’t cost so much to compete.
However, if the owners don’t get their way, then I fully expect DeWitt to sell and get out!
The entire point here of this rebuild is (or should be) to get out of "let's be happy with trying to get a WC spot." The Cardinals have only made it past the 1st round of the playoffs once in the last 10 years.
The point should be to put the team back on a footing where they can seriously compete to make it to the NLCS and WS.
But to do that, they have to be able to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. - and they need a lot more young talent than they have to do that.
I’m not settling for just the wildcard, however, you’ve got to get in to even have a chance. The Cardinals aren’t even trying, not until after the lockout is over, and maybe not even then if things aren’t changed. You can believe what you want, but that’s the way I see it. The fact that Goldschmidt, Arenado, and Mikolas didn’t live up to their contracts, and Gorman, and Walker haven’t stepped up has caused DeWitt to quit trying under the current conditions. If he gets his way under the new agreement, he’ll start trying again up to a point, but if things don’t change, I think he sells the team. He’s simply not going to spend what it will take to keep up. The Cardinals should never spend like the Dodgers or Mets, or Yankees, that’s what’s wrong with the current system, but the Cardinals aren’t the Pirates, Reds, Rays, and Brewers either.
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm
Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.
As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.
On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.
Thanks.
And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.
But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
So you think Bloom will be able to construct a starting squad of Homegrowners???? What is the probability of that??
They realistically need about 10 pre-ARB/ARB guys who are at least 2+ fWAR starting position players, starting pitchers, or a proven closer. And they need maybe 3 of those 10 to be better, like 3-4 fWAR.
Right now they have:
- Winn in the higher 3-4 fWAR category, so that's 1 of 3
- Herrera, Burleson, Donovan (unless traded), maybe Liberatore, maybe Scott, so best case that's about 5 of 7
So they need to add a 3-4 fWAR SP (e.g., Doyle), a 3-4 fWAR position player (Wetherholt). They need to have those guys actually producing at the ML level.
Then they need both Liberatore and Scott to get a bit better. And they need to see a couple of other guys (maybe Crooks, maybe McGreevy, maybe Svanson becoming a proven closer, maybe guys they get in trades this year, maybe Nootbaar bouncing back, Gorman, Walker, etc.) get into that solidly 2+ fWAR range.
And they need to have about eight solid pre-ARB/ARB bench players/relief pitchers - Romero (unless traded), O'Brien, Leahy, Graceffo, Saggese, Pages. So they need to find a few bench players/relief pitchers too.
They are good six or seven players short - at least 3 "high value" players and 3 "lower value" players short of the foundation they need. And they need a couple of those "high value" players to be a step higher than just OK.
It's going to take work and patience to get there, but getting Wetherholt and Doyle to the majors and playing up to their high potentials would be a key start. They need those two to be HRs.
Several of these things might have already been accomplished (or moved on to other options already) if we had the right manager. Oli is treading water with this roster and will continue to do so.
Whyever you think it is, it is.
All I know is that, unless Gorman and/or Walker have miraculous turnarounds and Liberatore becomes a #2/#3 SP, they are probably a couple of years away waiting for Wetherholt and Doyle to arrive before they can even start thinking about being competitive again.
I would counter with the fact, that they were competing this past year at different times, but the Cardinals continued to put Fedde, Pallante, and Mikolas on the mound in crucial games. Then injuries to Herrera, Donovan and Nootbaar set them back. Then they traded away key bullpen assets and brought back nothing to help the team down the stretch, and quite possibly never help them!
Removing Fedde and replacing him with McGreevey sooner would have made a difference. The Cardinals had two or three pitchers placed in Memphis as depth, but never used them. They obviously weren’t #1, #2, or even #3 starters, but wouldn’t any of them been better than Pallante? The Cardinals didn’t even try them. When Noot, Herrera and Donovan were out injured, who did the Cardinals replace them with? Valade, Hampson, and Church! The Cardinals said that they weren’t going to try and win, just see what the youngsters could do, and by golly that’s what they did. Even when the team played better than they expected, they still didn’t try and supplement the team. The Cardinals were not going to catch the Brewers, too many things fell into place for them, but they could have gotten in by the Wild Card and they DIDN’T TRY!
Now they tell us it’s going to be another 2 or 3 years before they are ready to go for it again. That just means after the lock out is over and “IF” DeWitt and other owners get their way and it won’t cost so much to compete.
However, if the owners don’t get their way, then I fully expect DeWitt to sell and get out!
The entire point here of this rebuild is (or should be) to get out of "let's be happy with trying to get a WC spot." The Cardinals have only made it past the 1st round of the playoffs once in the last 10 years.
The point should be to put the team back on a footing where they can seriously compete to make it to the NLCS and WS.
But to do that, they have to be able to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. - and they need a lot more young talent than they have to do that.
meanwhile, inexperienced talent doesn't often beat experienced talent in October. Even if we can't win it all, playing a playoff series or two each year would get the keepers on this roster extremely Valuable playoff experience now that could make the difference between losing and winning an NLCS vs another experienced playoff team once we have more equal talent (on paper) in the future.
We don't have to majorly mortgage the future to get there, just make internal moves like getting talent we already have like McGreevy and JJW on the roster sooner, cutting guys that Aren't working out quicker, and maybe forego an occassional bucket of balls type like Jesus Baez (or trade another lower rated prospect we won't miss for him if our scouts are really that sold) and keep paying a few million $ to our best bullpen pieces after the trade deadline(Absolutely convinced Helsley wouldn't have melted down as bad as he did if he'd stayed in comfortable STL vs bright lights NYC).
That potential playoff experience is worth something someday and that's being completely ignored.
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm
Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.
As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.
On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.
Thanks.
And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.
But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
So you think Bloom will be able to construct a starting squad of Homegrowners???? What is the probability of that??
They realistically need about 10 pre-ARB/ARB guys who are at least 2+ fWAR starting position players, starting pitchers, or a proven closer. And they need maybe 3 of those 10 to be better, like 3-4 fWAR.
Right now they have:
- Winn in the higher 3-4 fWAR category, so that's 1 of 3
- Herrera, Burleson, Donovan (unless traded), maybe Liberatore, maybe Scott, so best case that's about 5 of 7
So they need to add a 3-4 fWAR SP (e.g., Doyle), a 3-4 fWAR position player (Wetherholt). They need to have those guys actually producing at the ML level.
Then they need both Liberatore and Scott to get a bit better. And they need to see a couple of other guys (maybe Crooks, maybe McGreevy, maybe Svanson becoming a proven closer, maybe guys they get in trades this year, maybe Nootbaar bouncing back, Gorman, Walker, etc.) get into that solidly 2+ fWAR range.
And they need to have about eight solid pre-ARB/ARB bench players/relief pitchers - Romero (unless traded), O'Brien, Leahy, Graceffo, Saggese, Pages. So they need to find a few bench players/relief pitchers too.
They are good six or seven players short - at least 3 "high value" players and 3 "lower value" players short of the foundation they need. And they need a couple of those "high value" players to be a step higher than just OK.
It's going to take work and patience to get there, but getting Wetherholt and Doyle to the majors and playing up to their high potentials would be a key start. They need those two to be HRs.
Several of these things might have already been accomplished (or moved on to other options already) if we had the right manager. Oli is treading water with this roster and will continue to do so.
Whyever you think it is, it is.
All I know is that, unless Gorman and/or Walker have miraculous turnarounds and Liberatore becomes a #2/#3 SP, they are probably a couple of years away waiting for Wetherholt and Doyle to arrive before they can even start thinking about being competitive again.
I would counter with the fact, that they were competing this past year at different times, but the Cardinals continued to put Fedde, Pallante, and Mikolas on the mound in crucial games. Then injuries to Herrera, Donovan and Nootbaar set them back. Then they traded away key bullpen assets and brought back nothing to help the team down the stretch, and quite possibly never help them!
Removing Fedde and replacing him with McGreevey sooner would have made a difference. The Cardinals had two or three pitchers placed in Memphis as depth, but never used them. They obviously weren’t #1, #2, or even #3 starters, but wouldn’t any of them been better than Pallante? The Cardinals didn’t even try them. When Noot, Herrera and Donovan were out injured, who did the Cardinals replace them with? Valade, Hampson, and Church! The Cardinals said that they weren’t going to try and win, just see what the youngsters could do, and by golly that’s what they did. Even when the team played better than they expected, they still didn’t try and supplement the team. The Cardinals were not going to catch the Brewers, too many things fell into place for them, but they could have gotten in by the Wild Card and they DIDN’T TRY!
Now they tell us it’s going to be another 2 or 3 years before they are ready to go for it again. That just means after the lock out is over and “IF” DeWitt and other owners get their way and it won’t cost so much to compete.
However, if the owners don’t get their way, then I fully expect DeWitt to sell and get out!
The entire point here of this rebuild is (or should be) to get out of "let's be happy with trying to get a WC spot." The Cardinals have only made it past the 1st round of the playoffs once in the last 10 years.
The point should be to put the team back on a footing where they can seriously compete to make it to the NLCS and WS.
But to do that, they have to be able to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. - and they need a lot more young talent than they have to do that.
meanwhile, inexperienced talent doesn't often beat experienced talent in October. Even if we can't win it all, playing a playoff series or two each year would get the keepers on this roster extremely Valuable playoff experience now that could make the difference between losing and winning an NLCS vs another experienced playoff team once we have more equal talent (on paper) in the future.
We don't have to majorly mortgage the future to get there, just make internal moves like getting talent we already have like McGreevy and JJW on the roster sooner, cutting guys that Aren't working out quicker, and maybe forego an occassional bucket of balls type like Jesus Baez (or trade another lower rated prospect we won't miss for him if our scouts are really that sold) and keep paying a few million $ to our best bullpen pieces after the trade deadline(Absolutely convinced Helsley wouldn't have melted down as bad as he did if he'd stayed in comfortable STL vs bright lights NYC).
That potential playoff experience is worth something someday and that's being completely ignored.
Yeah, the 2015-2016 Cubs are a good example of that. We won the division in 2015 with 100 wins and the Cubs made it as a wildcard. The Cubs bounced us in the playoffs, but didn't make it all the way. But in 2016.... (sorry, I have to stop- can't bring myself to say it)
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:16 pm
No need to change managers yet. Bloom probably couldn't get the guy he wants with the current roster. Give him time to build a stronger team. Then he will have a higher caliber of manager applicants.
The Manager and his coaching staff is WHO makes the roster stronger. And Oli isn't doing it. The young guys on the roster now don't have another year to wait and waste.
I agree a manager sets a tone, brings a culture, and adds an attitude to the team. And I prefer to see a change. But I dont think a top quality manager would be interested in this job right now. Bolster the roster and go find the guy.
why not? Bloom has the number 1 farm system and the brightest future in all of MLB according to some posters here. If true, shouldn't top managers Want to be a part of that? If not true, why are some fans blindly believing what baseball pros won't believe in?
Meanwhile we are just spinning our wheel every time we "bolster" the roster with a top rated prospect who makes their debut then can't find their footing due to Oli and his staff's lack of development guidance AFTER they actually make the majors.
Leadership comes first. Only then can talent develop to their true potential.
Given the unpredictability of prospects performing at a high level in MLB. Walker was the top rated prospect back in 2023. That didn't translate to success. Gorman and Liberatore were highly rated. Not much successes there either. A top notch manager is going to want proof of capable talent. They won't be interested in prospects who haven't had MLB experience yet
I agree, the system is way behind. The development of young players hasn't been great. Hopefully the changes Bloom is making corrects that. But it won't happen immediately. Once the system is in place and results occur, then top level candidates will be interested.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:16 pm
No need to change managers yet. Bloom probably couldn't get the guy he wants with the current roster. Give him time to build a stronger team. Then he will have a higher caliber of manager applicants.
The Manager and his coaching staff is WHO makes the roster stronger. And Oli isn't doing it. The young guys on the roster now don't have another year to wait and waste.
I agree a manager sets a tone, brings a culture, and adds an attitude to the team. And I prefer to see a change. But I dont think a top quality manager would be interested in this job right now. Bolster the roster and go find the guy.
why not? Bloom has the number 1 farm system and the brightest future in all of MLB according to some posters here. If true, shouldn't top managers Want to be a part of that? If not true, why are some fans blindly believing what baseball pros won't believe in?
Meanwhile we are just spinning our wheel every time we "bolster" the roster with a top rated prospect who makes their debut then can't find their footing due to Oli and his staff's lack of development guidance AFTER they actually make the majors.
Leadership comes first. Only then can talent develop to their true potential.
Given the unpredictability of prospects performing at a high level in MLB. Walker was the top rated prospect back in 2023. That didn't translate to success. Gorman and Liberatore were highly rated. Not much successes there either. A
They all developed well in the Minors and flopped after reaching MLB. That's on Oli for not continuing the progess, not on the MiLB system. A manager like Tony would force the players to listen and learn and develop OR determine they are a lost cause and demand a trade/replacement. Oli did neither.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 06:25 am
There continues to be a contingent on CT who wants to misrepresent what those of us who support the Cardinals current direction are saying. This contingent repeatedly tries to say that we who support the direction categorically "don't want the Cardinals to spend money."
I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.
What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs. Even if they held on to Gray, Contreras, Donovan, etc. and added like a Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease on 5+ year deals, they wouldn't have enough talent to really challenge the best teams in the NL in 2026. Committing to more guys now on long, expensive contracts who are likely to turn into your next "Nolan Arenados" in 3, 4, 5 years isn't going to help you down the road either.
The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.
So their spending money now should be directed toward either gathering more prospects immediately (from trades of Gray, Arenado, Contreras) or gathering more prospects later by planning to deal cheap FAs signed now for prospects during the 2026 season.
Does eating salaries for NA, Contreras. Gray constitute "spending money". The money has been committed for some time.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 06:25 am
There continues to be a contingent on CT who wants to misrepresent what those of us who support the Cardinals current direction are saying. This contingent repeatedly tries to say that we who support the direction categorically "don't want the Cardinals to spend money."
I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.
What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs. Even if they held on to Gray, Contreras, Donovan, etc. and added like a Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease on 5+ year deals, they wouldn't have enough talent to really challenge the best teams in the NL in 2026. Committing to more guys now on long, expensive contracts who are likely to turn into your next "Nolan Arenados" in 3, 4, 5 years isn't going to help you down the road either.
The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.
So their spending money now should be directed toward either gathering more prospects immediately (from trades of Gray, Arenado, Contreras) or gathering more prospects later by planning to deal cheap FAs signed now for prospects during the 2026 season.
Does eating salaries for NA, Contreras. Gray constitute "spending money". The money has been committed for some time.
I count it as "spending money" on top of what they will be paying the guys actually on the Cardinals roster. If the actual roster is $100 million and they ship $30 million with Gray and Arenado, they are spending $130 million this year.
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 06:25 am
There continues to be a contingent on CT who wants to misrepresent what those of us who support the Cardinals current direction are saying. This contingent repeatedly tries to say that we who support the direction categorically "don't want the Cardinals to spend money."
I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.
What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs. Even if they held on to Gray, Contreras, Donovan, etc. and added like a Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease on 5+ year deals, they wouldn't have enough talent to really challenge the best teams in the NL in 2026. Committing to more guys now on long, expensive contracts who are likely to turn into your next "Nolan Arenados" in 3, 4, 5 years isn't going to help you down the road either.
The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.
So their spending money now should be directed toward either gathering more prospects immediately (from trades of Gray, Arenado, Contreras) or gathering more prospects later by planning to deal cheap FAs signed now for prospects during the 2026 season.
Does eating salaries for NA, Contreras. Gray constitute "spending money". The money has been committed for some time.
I count it as "spending money" on top of what they will be paying the guys actually on the Cardinals roster. If the actual roster is $100 million and they ship $30 million with Gray and Arenado, they are spending $130 million this year.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:16 pm
No need to change managers yet. Bloom probably couldn't get the guy he wants with the current roster. Give him time to build a stronger team. Then he will have a higher caliber of manager applicants.
The Manager and his coaching staff is WHO makes the roster stronger. And Oli isn't doing it. The young guys on the roster now don't have another year to wait and waste.
I agree a manager sets a tone, brings a culture, and adds an attitude to the team. And I prefer to see a change. But I dont think a top quality manager would be interested in this job right now. Bolster the roster and go find the guy.
why not? Bloom has the number 1 farm system and the brightest future in all of MLB according to some posters here. If true, shouldn't top managers Want to be a part of that? If not true, why are some fans blindly believing what baseball pros won't believe in?
Meanwhile we are just spinning our wheel every time we "bolster" the roster with a top rated prospect who makes their debut then can't find their footing due to Oli and his staff's lack of development guidance AFTER they actually make the majors.
Leadership comes first. Only then can talent develop to their true potential.
Given the unpredictability of prospects performing at a high level in MLB. Walker was the top rated prospect back in 2023. That didn't translate to success. Gorman and Liberatore were highly rated. Not much successes there either. A
They all developed well in the Minors and flopped after reaching MLB. That's on Oli for not continuing the progess, not on the MiLB system. A manager like Tony would force the players to listen and learn and develop OR determine they are a lost cause and demand a trade/replacement. Oli did neither.
No. Nothing about Walker's game showed any implication he was prepared to play MLB baseball. His offense was bad and his defense was horrendous. Gorman was the same except for flashes of power. Scott uses his speed to play good defense but his bat is nowhere near MLB ready. The whole program needed changed.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:16 pm
No need to change managers yet. Bloom probably couldn't get the guy he wants with the current roster. Give him time to build a stronger team. Then he will have a higher caliber of manager applicants.
The Manager and his coaching staff is WHO makes the roster stronger. And Oli isn't doing it. The young guys on the roster now don't have another year to wait and waste.
I agree a manager sets a tone, brings a culture, and adds an attitude to the team. And I prefer to see a change. But I dont think a top quality manager would be interested in this job right now. Bolster the roster and go find the guy.
why not? Bloom has the number 1 farm system and the brightest future in all of MLB according to some posters here. If true, shouldn't top managers Want to be a part of that? If not true, why are some fans blindly believing what baseball pros won't believe in?
Meanwhile we are just spinning our wheel every time we "bolster" the roster with a top rated prospect who makes their debut then can't find their footing due to Oli and his staff's lack of development guidance AFTER they actually make the majors.
Leadership comes first. Only then can talent develop to their true potential.
Given the unpredictability of prospects performing at a high level in MLB. Walker was the top rated prospect back in 2023. That didn't translate to success. Gorman and Liberatore were highly rated. Not much successes there either. A
They all developed well in the Minors and flopped after reaching MLB. That's on Oli for not continuing the progess, not on the MiLB system. A manager like Tony would force the players to listen and learn and develop OR determine they are a lost cause and demand a trade/replacement. Oli did neither.
No. Nothing about Walker's game showed any implication he was prepared to play MLB baseball. His offense was bad and his defense was horrendous. Gorman was the same except for flashes of power. Scott uses his speed to play good defense but his bat is nowhere near MLB ready. The whole program needed changed.
