A Whole Lot of "We're Going to See"

[Talkin' Baseball]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

What kind of rebuild gives up on a 23 year old that was a top prospect a year ago, or a gold glove caliber center fielder with plus speed on the base paths after one season, or even a 25 year old who has already had a full mlb season with 27 homers and an .800 ops over 400 at bats?

I feel very impatient at times and I certainly think big mistakes in the past. But, with the CBA coming after 2026, there really isn’t a good reason not to give all the guys on your list another season to figure it out. What they need to do is add pitching and be ready to add what is needed offensively once the new CBA is in place

There are several around here that can’t or won’t accept where the Cards are today. Or what their long range plan is. “Sign or trade somebody!” Even though the World Series isn’t yet over, and none of those roster moves can be made yet.

Yup. In a nutshell. Reality hasn't crept in to what it will take to field a top quality product. The team can not afford to buy its way out of this mess. it will take some pain and time. I'm hoping we are already at the halfway point and start to see a quality team by 2027.

That seems reasonable.

[ramfandan]

You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.

Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.

At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?

I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.

Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.

Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.

I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.

And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.

The Infinity Loop thinking that we’ll just keeping starting poor players because we won’t be competing next season is self fulfilling prophecy.
Gorman sucks at 3b and can’t consistently hit
Stick Walker at AAA and tell him to dominate for couple seasons.
But don’t keep these guys on ML club to suck…..OBVIOUSLY they can’t work it out playing everyday on a ML team.

Regarding Walker, in the Goold chat in Post Derrick said Cardinal management do not feel going to AAA will cure Walker’s issues fir they feel the pitching is much inferior and Walker’s problems is handling big league sweepers, splitters, etc. They feel he would hit thr AAA guys dominating them but it wouldn’t be solving his chase issues he sees from major leaguers . Again this not my theory but Cards management feeling that way.
It’s in his last chat when questioner asked about Walker going to AAA fir extended playing time.

Pitchers at AAA , with just a few exceptions, do not throw thr nasty stuff like big leaguers do.. thus why the pitchers are AAA and not pitching for their big league team in ‘The Show’ .

[Ozziesfan41]

You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.

Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.

At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?

I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.

Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.

Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.

I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.

And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.

The Infinity Loop thinking that we’ll just keeping starting poor players because we won’t be competing next season is self fulfilling prophecy.
Gorman sucks at 3b and can’t consistently hit
Stick Walker at AAA and tell him to dominate for couple seasons.
But don’t keep these guys on ML club to suck…..OBVIOUSLY they can’t work it out playing everyday on a ML team.

Regarding Walker, in the Goold chat in Post Derrick said Cardinal management do not feel going to AAA will cure Walker’s issues fir they feel the pitching is much inferior and Walker’s problems is handling big league sweepers, splitters, etc. They feel he would hit thr AAA guys dominating them but it wouldn’t be solving his chase issues he sees from major leaguers . Again this not my theory but Cards management feeling that way.
It’s in his last chat when questioner asked about Walker going to AAA fir extended playing time.

Pitchers at AAA , with just a few exceptions, do not throw thr nasty stuff like big leaguers do.. thus why the pitchers are AAA and not pitching for their big league team in ‘The Show’ .

He hit .185 in the minors last season so he didn’t really dominate there either and looking clueless against the major league sweepers last season certainly didn’t help
Him

[ecleme22]

Pretty simple. A team does NOT keep giving Gorman yearly chances because player success is based upon performance. Performance at a level which contributes to team success. To show players that player performance is the criteria for playing MLB in STL you remove Gorman and others from the equation due to lack of successful performance. Not just lack of hitting but also defense, base running, athletic skills, etc are not MLB quality. The eye test does not lie.

IF Gorman worked for Apple, Microsoft, Berkshire, Eli Lilly, NVIDIA, Tesla, etc and produced like performance levels. Do you really think he would be employed?? SO then why is his failure allowed in STL?

+1 Gorman is a one tool player who can’t hit well enough to bring the one tool into play

Gorman did have a .755 OPS as late as 8/26 last year. And he still finished with a BB rate of almost 12% last year.

So we have power, a good walk rate and cheap for a rebuilding team.

Why the obsession with getting rid of him? He's blocking no one.

What are you worried about? He will start 150 games at 3B? He won't if he sucks.

[Ozziesfan41]

Pretty simple. A team does NOT keep giving Gorman yearly chances because player success is based upon performance. Performance at a level which contributes to team success. To show players that player performance is the criteria for playing MLB in STL you remove Gorman and others from the equation due to lack of successful performance. Not just lack of hitting but also defense, base running, athletic skills, etc are not MLB quality. The eye test does not lie.

IF Gorman worked for Apple, Microsoft, Berkshire, Eli Lilly, NVIDIA, Tesla, etc and produced like performance levels. Do you really think he would be employed?? SO then why is his failure allowed in STL?

+1 Gorman is a one tool player who can’t hit well enough to bring the one tool into play

Gorman did have a .755 OPS as late as 8/26 last year. And he still finished with a BB rate of almost 12% last year.

So we have power, a good walk rate and cheap for a rebuilding team.

Why the obsession with getting rid of him? He's blocking no one.

What are you worried about? He will start 150 games at 3B? He won't if he sucks.

What was ending OBP and OPS? I’m not worried about anything I just don’t want to watch him suck for another season I’ve seen that show and he will suck I said exactly what would happen last off season I said he would suck have a hot streak people would swoon and say he’s figured it out then he would suck again and his numbers would suck at the end of the year. 100% right and it will happen again and next off season you will say yea but during his hot streak he got his ops up to .750 before he sucked again. And why wouldn’t he if he sucks again? They kept playing him last season when he sucked and as you said he’s not blocking anyone so it will be another wasted season of watching him suck

[Carp4Cy]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

Some of those questions have been answered already bloom may just be too dumb to see it though and needs another year to see the glaringly obvious

OR

Bloom is smart and wants to see these guys with an offseason of more proper and directed development.

You’re calling Bloom dumb before he’s had a chance to do anything. Longer rope.

He could give them off-season of prep plus rebuild the roster with some badly needed experience and talent and still give these guys a chance to prove themselves and if they win the job, they win the job. But make them earn it instead of giving them 162 game tryouts yet again

[Ozziesfan41]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

Some of those questions have been answered already bloom may just be too dumb to see it though and needs another year to see the glaringly obvious

OR

Bloom is smart and wants to see these guys with an offseason of more proper and directed development.

You’re calling Bloom dumb before he’s had a chance to do anything. Longer rope.

He could give them off-season of prep plus rebuild the roster with some badly needed experience and talent and still give these guys a chance to prove themselves and if they win the job, they win the job. But make them earn it instead of giving them 162 game tryouts yet again

I don’t get what he means by more proper and directed development when it’s the same hitting coach coming back who worked with him last off season and and season working with him again

[An Old Friend]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

Some of those questions have been answered already bloom may just be too dumb to see it though and needs another year to see the glaringly obvious

OR

Bloom is smart and wants to see these guys with an offseason of more proper and directed development.

You’re calling Bloom dumb before he’s had a chance to do anything. Longer rope.

He could give them off-season of prep plus rebuild the roster with some badly needed experience and talent and still give these guys a chance to prove themselves and if they win the job, they win the job. But make them earn it instead of giving them 162 game tryouts yet again

I don’t get what he means by more proper and directed development when it’s the same hitting coach coming back who worked with him last off season and and season working with him again

Are you honestly saying that you’ve seen or heard no mention of their investments in player development and performance groups under Cerfolio?

You seem laser focused on the major league hitting coach. Player development is so much more than that position.

[Goldfan]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

Some of those questions have been answered already bloom may just be too dumb to see it though and needs another year to see the glaringly obvious

OR

Bloom is smart and wants to see these guys with an offseason of more proper and directed development.

You’re calling Bloom dumb before he’s had a chance to do anything. Longer rope.

He could give them off-season of prep plus rebuild the roster with some badly needed experience and talent and still give these guys a chance to prove themselves and if they win the job, they win the job. But make them earn it instead of giving them 162 game tryouts yet again

I don’t get what he means by more proper and directed development when it’s the same hitting coach coming back who worked with him last off season and and season working with him again

Are you honestly saying that you’ve seen or heard no mention of their investments in player development and performance groups under Cerfolio?

You seem laser focused on the major league hitting coach. Player development is so much more than that position.

So again what specifically are these investments, performance groups…..whatever going to do to correct Gorman bailing out on every other pitch or Walker not being able to touch or lay off a slider??? The book is out on these 2 and they can’t adjust. Years have gone by with Cards instructors attempting to correct their swings…..Either they can’t or won’t listen. Some Bloom magic cures this?

[Ozziesfan41]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

Some of those questions have been answered already bloom may just be too dumb to see it though and needs another year to see the glaringly obvious

OR

Bloom is smart and wants to see these guys with an offseason of more proper and directed development.

You’re calling Bloom dumb before he’s had a chance to do anything. Longer rope.

He could give them off-season of prep plus rebuild the roster with some badly needed experience and talent and still give these guys a chance to prove themselves and if they win the job, they win the job. But make them earn it instead of giving them 162 game tryouts yet again

I don’t get what he means by more proper and directed development when it’s the same hitting coach coming back who worked with him last off season and and season working with him again

Are you honestly saying that you’ve seen or heard no mention of their investments in player development and performance groups under Cerfolio?

You seem laser focused on the major league hitting coach. Player development is so much more than that position.

Yes he is the one who helped them last offseason and season and will do so again. You tell me who exactly is going to be helping them this offseason what great mystical gurus are going to be helping them?

[Red7]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

What kind of rebuild gives up on a 23 year old that was a top prospect a year ago, or a gold glove caliber center fielder with plus speed on the base paths after one season, or even a 25 year old who has already had a full mlb season with 27 homers and an .800 ops over 400 at bats?

I feel very impatient at times and I certainly think big mistakes in the past. But, with the CBA coming after 2026, there really isn’t a good reason not to give all the guys on your list another season to figure it out. What they need to do is add pitching and be ready to add what is needed offensively once the new CBA is in place

By that keep Gorman logic they should have kept Carlson because he’s just 26 and had a decent season a few years ago. Cards should just give them runway careers instead of runway seasons

Without changing the current roster and knowing JJ will get a significant opportunity
JJ gets 3B or outfield. BD 2B.
That group of Gorman, Walker, Saggese, others battle to see if JJ has to start in the outfield
or the infield. Obviously trades would change this.

The roster will undergo considerable change. I don’t think it will be a sell off as much as a restructuring. The current roster is full of redundancy. I see the Cardinals moving some of THEIR redundancies to other teams that have their own redundancy issues. Decluttering the roster and subtracting redundancy will produce 5-10 wins alone.

[Stlcardsblues]

So many want to see the team fixed NOW. Here is a clue - they can't.

Bloom inherited a team that was a loser last year. Has zero star power on either side of the ball. And any money that might be spent on free agents is already tied up in aging players at the tail end of their contracts. Typically that isn't when you get value.

Mix it all up with declining fan base (justifiably) and a looming lockout/strike and what you have is the perfect storm of 2026 will clearly be a year of shaking out what they have and aiming at 2027 and beyond. A rebuild. Or tanking as one member here constantly calls it. It isn't Blooms fault they need to give Gorman and Walker another lengthy audition. It isn't his fault the pitching is a mess.

In short you guys really need to back off demands of Bloom his first year. And some of you are going to be upset with the deals he makes I'm certain. I know if I were him I'd be dealing Donovan for the best prospect I can get back. I'd also be dealing at least one of the catching prospects we have for more pitching or OF prospects.

And I'd be signing several aging FA pitchers that are not exciting because all it takes is one to have a good first half and you get another high end prospect for him.

My guess is we see lots of motion starting at the Winter Meetings and possibly some Rule 5 action. There is no attachment by Bloom to any of this team so I expect movement.

God I hope so. This team needs a massive shakeup.

Wait, someone else was trying to tell me the 25 Cardinals had a chance to contend for a World Series and selling was a mistake. You feel it was a bad team in 25 and selling was the correct answer? Who would have guessed.

[ecleme22]

You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.

Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.

At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?

I likened it to a cat with 9 lives.

JJ obviously has 9 lives.
Scott maybe 5 or 6.
Gorman and Walker maybe 1-1.5

All four might be in the 2026 OD lineup. They all have varying lengths of rope...

Bump.

Let's put it in perspective. We have no idea who Bloom will trade, trade for, and pick up in FA.

There is no reason to have any angst about NG/JW's place on the team on October 28th.

BUT, if both are on the team, see my above post. Both of those guys are on serious notice. AND, Bloom has been here 2 years and has deep knowledge of both.

Now my thoughts:
1. Walker. Huge disappointment. But if he's a platoon OFer in 2026, who cares?
2. Gorman: In 2026, had a .755 OPS as late as 8/26. Carried a 11.7 BB rate the whole year.

What is the big deal with keeping both?

LOL, this should not be the most important conversation of 2026. It should be trading Gray, NA, WC, mabye BD and AB. And signing starters and maybe a corner OFer.

Look at my post above. NG and JW both have very short leashes. Being concerned with them is a waste of time. If they suck, they will be bench players and maybe eventually traded...

[JuanAgosto]

A massive overhaul and trading frenzy would be entertaining and fantastic! But in reality, two or three smart trades would be acceptable and appreciated.

[An Old Friend]

We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.

I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.

Some of those questions have been answered already bloom may just be too dumb to see it though and needs another year to see the glaringly obvious

OR

Bloom is smart and wants to see these guys with an offseason of more proper and directed development.

You’re calling Bloom dumb before he’s had a chance to do anything. Longer rope.

He could give them off-season of prep plus rebuild the roster with some badly needed experience and talent and still give these guys a chance to prove themselves and if they win the job, they win the job. But make them earn it instead of giving them 162 game tryouts yet again

I don’t get what he means by more proper and directed development when it’s the same hitting coach coming back who worked with him last off season and and season working with him again

Are you honestly saying that you’ve seen or heard no mention of their investments in player development and performance groups under Cerfolio?

You seem laser focused on the major league hitting coach. Player development is so much more than that position.

So again what specifically are these investments, performance groups…..whatever going to do to correct Gorman bailing out on every other pitch or Walker not being able to touch or lay off a slider??? The book is out on these 2 and they can’t adjust. Years have gone by with Cards instructors attempting to correct their swings…..Either they can’t or won’t listen. Some Bloom magic cures this?

Look… I understand that ozzie thinks Bloom is a bum, and you think there are players in the organization that are lost causes.

That’s fine. I don’t understand Ozzie’s position cause he won’t explain why he thinks Bloom sucks basically before he’s even started.

I think it’s good the team finally realized how far behind the market they’ve been in player development / instruction / tech and that they have people working to correct for that. What I don’t understand is why you’re so against it.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Interesting article about Brendan Donovan possible trade partners.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2025/10/ ... trade.html