Hate to think this but we aren't far from Royals territory

[ScotchMIrish]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

[Ozziesfan41]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

[ecleme22]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Molina and Beltran were on the ‘12-13 teams.

They will soon be HOFers.

[mattmitchl44]

The Cardinals were projected to finish last. By 2025 standards we would have dumped for prospects. 2011 we were wild card. In both cases we went for it and got it.

In 2006 who projected the Cardinals to finish last? After coming off two 100 win seasons, an NL Pennant, and nearly a second one in 2005? Because I sure don’t remember that. And I just googled it to make sure I’m not crazy and the first two results I could find both had them picked to win the Central. And they were 12 games up for the division at the deadline.

I think that continuing to compare this team to either of those teams is nonsense. They’re not remotely close.

Scroll up you will see the clickable link in a previous post. I can't say for sure who posted those odds but usually it's Vegas.

That's not what the link actually says. The link goes to Baseball Prospectus

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news ... 2012.47373

which actually said:

The NL Central features the major league’s weakest favorite, the Cardinals, tipping the scales at not quite 36%. The range, just 2.5x from top to bottom, also makes this the tightest division, at least on the average; as you can see by the rankings, real life will probably stretch things out a bit.

The Cardinals were the favorite to win the NL Central. But of all the teams that were favored to win their divisions (Yankees, Indians, Athletics, Mets, Cardinals, Dodgers) the Cardinals had the lowest odds (were the "weakest favorite") to make the playoffs.

The Cardinals were NOT predicted to finish last in the NL Central in 2006.

[ScotchMIrish]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

[Ozziesfan41]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

Got a link for him quitting because pujols left or are you making that up? Matheny took over a team that had won the World Series twice in the last 6 seasons lol that’s a heck of a team compared to what Larussa inherited

[ScotchMIrish]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

Got a link for him quitting because pujols left or are you making that up? Matheny took over a team that had won the World Series twice in the last 6 seasons lol that’s a heck of a team compared to what Larussa inherited

Search LaRussa quitting Pujols leaving. Pujols never played for Matheny. You didn't know that?

[Ozziesfan41]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

Got a link for him quitting because pujols left or are you making that up? Matheny took over a team that had won the World Series twice in the last 6 seasons lol that’s a heck of a team compared to what Larussa inherited

Search LaRussa quitting Pujols leaving. Pujols never played for Matheny. You didn't know that?

Yea it all says Larussa announced his retirement before pujols signed with the angels so you are wrong. Also no quotes from Larussa saying he quit of Albert so yea you’re making things up

[renostl]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

Probably not the only reason. He likely could have found a manager/coach job is desired.
He went FO. I often remember a phrase when I hear or see an end to a relationship.

"No matter how pretty she is there is someone, somewhere, tired of putting up with her S@!t."
2 way street.

Tony made comments for years that a managers message gets old at 10 years. He stayed for 16.
He got to go out on top, pretty good idea if you can, at 66 he could.

The team a manager inherited shouldn't mean much if the team is willing to change that
roster to that managers desire. During TLR tenure the team was willing.

[ScotchMIrish]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

Got a link for him quitting because pujols left or are you making that up? Matheny took over a team that had won the World Series twice in the last 6 seasons lol that’s a heck of a team compared to what Larussa inherited

Search LaRussa quitting Pujols leaving. Pujols never played for Matheny. You didn't know that?

Yea it all says Larussa announced his retirement before pujols signed with the angels so you are wrong. Also no quotes from Larussa saying he quit of Albert so yea you’re making things up

Amazing coincidence.

[Ozziesfan41]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

Got a link for him quitting because pujols left or are you making that up? Matheny took over a team that had won the World Series twice in the last 6 seasons lol that’s a heck of a team compared to what Larussa inherited

Search LaRussa quitting Pujols leaving. Pujols never played for Matheny. You didn't know that?

Yea it all says Larussa announced his retirement before pujols signed with the angels so you are wrong. Also no quotes from Larussa saying he quit of Albert so yea you’re making things up

Amazing coincidence.

Well since you’re just making up baseless stupid things it was actually because Larussa announced his retirement that pujols left the cardinals he wanted to play for Tony and since he retired pujols left because he knew Matheny would be the new manager and didnt like him

[ecleme22]

How many world championships has MM won and if hes so great as you are trying so hard to convince people why exactly was he fired in Kansas City

Just the facts. He got the Cardinals to a World Series without Pujols on the roster - something LaRussa never did.

So he won zero World Series championships thanks

Correct. It took LaRussa 7 years just to get to the WS and 9 to win one and that was with a HOF bat in the lineup. Shildt and Marmol are a combined 1-4 in playoff series. Matheny 5-4 with the same Mozeliak minor league system. If Marmol won the NL they would build a statue of him given the dismal state of affairs.

Larussa did not have the benefit of taking over a team that had just won the World Series he had to help build the organization. Matheny took over a team that won the World Series twice in the previous 7 years lol he had a great team team to take over. World Series winning players great veteran leadership he had a huge gift of a team to take over. The cardinals had been sucking for 9 years when Larussa took over. But hey feel free to ignore those details

Oh please. LaRussa quit because he knew Pujols was leaving. He ended up trading Dansby Swanson for Shelby MIller and lost his job in AZ as a result.

This is a stupid statement.

If TLR did what you are saying, he would’ve been back as a manager somewhere else by 2013. Time shows he obviously retired from managing.

[ecleme22]

Philosophically, the Cardinals should be positioning their organization to where they can, many years (say 2 out of 3), have a roster going into the season that on paper looks to be ~Top 3 in the NL when they bulk up to a $180-$200 million payroll.

But to do that against the Dodgers, Phillies, Braves, Mets, etc., they have to have a ~Top 5 farm system in terms of delivering talent to the ML team - producing both solid, average starters and the occasional impact player (a 4-5 fWAR position player or #1/#2 SP). They are getting there, but the ML team hasn't yet realized the benefits. Maybe after Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. matriculate, they will start to get the pipeline back to where it needs to be.

If they get to the trade deadline and it looks to be holding true (based on player performance, injury avoidance, etc.) that they have a ~Top 3 in the NL roster, then by all means look to "win now" and make additions to push for a WS that year.

I don't see them having the money to bulk up to that level but the question is dump or add in July. What's the benchmark number for that?

The benchmark is - when the trade deadline approaches, does it look like they have a Top 3 in the NL roster or not? If yes, add. If no, but are firmly in a spot to make the playoffs, hold. If no and not firmly in a spot to make the playoffs, sell.

So if we aren't top 3 abandon all hope? 2011 we were wild card but we added a pitcher in July named Edwin Jackson who got us to the playoffs - barely. That's a lot of dumping and not a lot of trying to win.

The made a lot of upgrades at the deadline in 2011 fixed most of their weaknesses. They also had pujols berkman holliday and a rotation headed by carpenter and a hall of
Fame manager. If the cardinals made the post season next season they would have a murderers row of walker and Gorman lol a rotation headed by who? And lead by oli lol that would be the fastest one and done series ever

Exactly they didn't dump. Wild card team won the WS. Contrast that with the current attitude that wild card isn't good enough.

The 2011 team had pieces worth trading for to try to win with a cy young caliber ace pujols Berkman Holliday a hall of fame manager yea you Ride with that. You want them to trade prospects to ride with a fearsome middle of the order of Gorman and walker and gray as your big ace and freaking oli as manger lol that would be pretty dumb

I'd like to see us try to win instead of quitting midway through the season when we have a chance to make the playoff. Like we did in 2006 and 2011.

You need to have a team and manager who can win comparing what they have now to 2006 and 2011 is insane. You view it only as oh but but but look at the win totals lol the 2006 team was a great team that injury problems and got
Healthy at the right time Edmonds even took exception to people saying they just got hot at the right time on a podcast he said no they got healthy at the right time and it was a great team. The 2011 team was good they were just missing a few pieces and fixed them at the deadline just like the braves did a few years ago. This team has no middle of the order it has no ace it has nothing that can remotely say one or two moves and this team can go deep

What "stars" will we have next season? Do we dump again even if we are winning because we don't have "star power"? The star was Pujols and Matheny took us to the playoff 4 times without Pujols - and a world series.

lol the team missed the playoffs 3 straight times with MM at the helm then went to the post season 4 straight times once they dumped him. The 2013 team that went to the World Series had 4 .300 hitters one .296 hitter one .284 hitter and one .276 hitter and a rotation that had 2 15 game winners and a 19 game winner the 2015 team had historically good pitching. MM wanted to get wacha into the post season so brought him in to get the cardinals eliminated

Scoreboard

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

Not one smart baseball mind would buy into this logic.

[ScotchMIrish]

I don't see them having the money to bulk up to that level but the question is dump or add in July. What's the benchmark number for that?

The benchmark is - when the trade deadline approaches, does it look like they have a Top 3 in the NL roster or not? If yes, add. If no, but are firmly in a spot to make the playoffs, hold. If no and not firmly in a spot to make the playoffs, sell.

So if we aren't top 3 abandon all hope? 2011 we were wild card but we added a pitcher in July named Edwin Jackson who got us to the playoffs - barely. That's a lot of dumping and not a lot of trying to win.

The made a lot of upgrades at the deadline in 2011 fixed most of their weaknesses. They also had pujols berkman holliday and a rotation headed by carpenter and a hall of
Fame manager. If the cardinals made the post season next season they would have a murderers row of walker and Gorman lol a rotation headed by who? And lead by oli lol that would be the fastest one and done series ever

Exactly they didn't dump. Wild card team won the WS. Contrast that with the current attitude that wild card isn't good enough.

The 2011 team had pieces worth trading for to try to win with a cy young caliber ace pujols Berkman Holliday a hall of fame manager yea you Ride with that. You want them to trade prospects to ride with a fearsome middle of the order of Gorman and walker and gray as your big ace and freaking oli as manger lol that would be pretty dumb

I'd like to see us try to win instead of quitting midway through the season when we have a chance to make the playoff. Like we did in 2006 and 2011.

You need to have a team and manager who can win comparing what they have now to 2006 and 2011 is insane. You view it only as oh but but but look at the win totals lol the 2006 team was a great team that injury problems and got
Healthy at the right time Edmonds even took exception to people saying they just got hot at the right time on a podcast he said no they got healthy at the right time and it was a great team. The 2011 team was good they were just missing a few pieces and fixed them at the deadline just like the braves did a few years ago. This team has no middle of the order it has no ace it has nothing that can remotely say one or two moves and this team can go deep

What "stars" will we have next season? Do we dump again even if we are winning because we don't have "star power"? The star was Pujols and Matheny took us to the playoff 4 times without Pujols - and a world series.

lol the team missed the playoffs 3 straight times with MM at the helm then went to the post season 4 straight times once they dumped him. The 2013 team that went to the World Series had 4 .300 hitters one .296 hitter one .284 hitter and one .276 hitter and a rotation that had 2 15 game winners and a 19 game winner the 2015 team had historically good pitching. MM wanted to get wacha into the post season so brought him in to get the cardinals eliminated

Scoreboard

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

Not one smart baseball mind would buy into this logic.

How about this? The first manager in the history of MLB to make the playoffs each of his first 4 seasons. Prior to 2011 LaRussa had made the playoffs 1 time in the previous 4 seasons and was swept by Torre and the Dodgers with Pujols on the roster. Took LaRussa 8 years to get to the WS. Took Matheny 2. No Pujols on the roster.

Help me out.

[ecleme22]

The benchmark is - when the trade deadline approaches, does it look like they have a Top 3 in the NL roster or not? If yes, add. If no, but are firmly in a spot to make the playoffs, hold. If no and not firmly in a spot to make the playoffs, sell.

So if we aren't top 3 abandon all hope? 2011 we were wild card but we added a pitcher in July named Edwin Jackson who got us to the playoffs - barely. That's a lot of dumping and not a lot of trying to win.

The made a lot of upgrades at the deadline in 2011 fixed most of their weaknesses. They also had pujols berkman holliday and a rotation headed by carpenter and a hall of
Fame manager. If the cardinals made the post season next season they would have a murderers row of walker and Gorman lol a rotation headed by who? And lead by oli lol that would be the fastest one and done series ever

Exactly they didn't dump. Wild card team won the WS. Contrast that with the current attitude that wild card isn't good enough.

The 2011 team had pieces worth trading for to try to win with a cy young caliber ace pujols Berkman Holliday a hall of fame manager yea you Ride with that. You want them to trade prospects to ride with a fearsome middle of the order of Gorman and walker and gray as your big ace and freaking oli as manger lol that would be pretty dumb

I'd like to see us try to win instead of quitting midway through the season when we have a chance to make the playoff. Like we did in 2006 and 2011.

You need to have a team and manager who can win comparing what they have now to 2006 and 2011 is insane. You view it only as oh but but but look at the win totals lol the 2006 team was a great team that injury problems and got
Healthy at the right time Edmonds even took exception to people saying they just got hot at the right time on a podcast he said no they got healthy at the right time and it was a great team. The 2011 team was good they were just missing a few pieces and fixed them at the deadline just like the braves did a few years ago. This team has no middle of the order it has no ace it has nothing that can remotely say one or two moves and this team can go deep

What "stars" will we have next season? Do we dump again even if we are winning because we don't have "star power"? The star was Pujols and Matheny took us to the playoff 4 times without Pujols - and a world series.

lol the team missed the playoffs 3 straight times with MM at the helm then went to the post season 4 straight times once they dumped him. The 2013 team that went to the World Series had 4 .300 hitters one .296 hitter one .284 hitter and one .276 hitter and a rotation that had 2 15 game winners and a 19 game winner the 2015 team had historically good pitching. MM wanted to get wacha into the post season so brought him in to get the cardinals eliminated

Scoreboard

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

Not one smart baseball mind would buy into this logic.

How about this? The first manager in the history of MLB to make the playoffs each of his first 4 seasons. Prior to 2011 LaRussa had made the playoffs 1 time in the previous 4 seasons and was swept by Torre and the Dodgers with Pujols on the roster. Took LaRussa 8 years to get to the WS. Took Matheny 2. No Pujols on the roster.

Help me out.

I think you’re beyond help, but if one player made that big of a difference, then the Angels would’ve dominated the AL for years w Ohtani and Trout.

Matheny made the WS in year 2, but he inherited a WS champ team, a farm system loaded with arms, and three quasi managers in Yadi, Waino and Chris Carpenter. Not to mention the signing of Beltran and maturation from Craig and Carpenter…

So this correlation using Pujols is not one any smart baseball mind would agree with. Because one great baseball player doesn’t carry an entire team. This isn’t the NBA….

[Ozziesfan41]

So if we aren't top 3 abandon all hope? 2011 we were wild card but we added a pitcher in July named Edwin Jackson who got us to the playoffs - barely. That's a lot of dumping and not a lot of trying to win.

The made a lot of upgrades at the deadline in 2011 fixed most of their weaknesses. They also had pujols berkman holliday and a rotation headed by carpenter and a hall of
Fame manager. If the cardinals made the post season next season they would have a murderers row of walker and Gorman lol a rotation headed by who? And lead by oli lol that would be the fastest one and done series ever

Exactly they didn't dump. Wild card team won the WS. Contrast that with the current attitude that wild card isn't good enough.

The 2011 team had pieces worth trading for to try to win with a cy young caliber ace pujols Berkman Holliday a hall of fame manager yea you Ride with that. You want them to trade prospects to ride with a fearsome middle of the order of Gorman and walker and gray as your big ace and freaking oli as manger lol that would be pretty dumb

I'd like to see us try to win instead of quitting midway through the season when we have a chance to make the playoff. Like we did in 2006 and 2011.

You need to have a team and manager who can win comparing what they have now to 2006 and 2011 is insane. You view it only as oh but but but look at the win totals lol the 2006 team was a great team that injury problems and got
Healthy at the right time Edmonds even took exception to people saying they just got hot at the right time on a podcast he said no they got healthy at the right time and it was a great team. The 2011 team was good they were just missing a few pieces and fixed them at the deadline just like the braves did a few years ago. This team has no middle of the order it has no ace it has nothing that can remotely say one or two moves and this team can go deep

What "stars" will we have next season? Do we dump again even if we are winning because we don't have "star power"? The star was Pujols and Matheny took us to the playoff 4 times without Pujols - and a world series.

lol the team missed the playoffs 3 straight times with MM at the helm then went to the post season 4 straight times once they dumped him. The 2013 team that went to the World Series had 4 .300 hitters one .296 hitter one .284 hitter and one .276 hitter and a rotation that had 2 15 game winners and a 19 game winner the 2015 team had historically good pitching. MM wanted to get wacha into the post season so brought him in to get the cardinals eliminated

Scoreboard

LaRussa's final 6 seasons with Pujols
2006 - 83
2007 - 78
2008 - 86
2009 - 91
2010 - 86
2011 - 90
________
514

Matheny's 6 seasons without Pujols
2012 - 88
2013 - 97
2014 - 90
2015 - 100
2016 - 86
2017 - 83
________
544

LaRussa's first 6 seasons without Pujols
1996 - 88
1997 - 73
1998 - 83
1999 - 75
2000 - 95
2001 - 93
________
507

6 seasons after Matheny
2019 - 91
covid 30-28 extrapolate to 162 = 84
2021 - 90
2022 - 93
2023 - 71
2024 - 83
________
512

Not one smart baseball mind would buy into this logic.

How about this? The first manager in the history of MLB to make the playoffs each of his first 4 seasons. Prior to 2011 LaRussa had made the playoffs 1 time in the previous 4 seasons and was swept by Torre and the Dodgers with Pujols on the roster. Took LaRussa 8 years to get to the WS. Took Matheny 2. No Pujols on the roster.

Help me out.

I think you’re beyond help, but if one player made that big of a difference, then the Angels would’ve dominated the AL for years w Ohtani and Trout.

Matheny made the WS in year 2, but he inherited a WS champ team, a farm system loaded with arms, and three quasi managers in Yadi, Waino and Chris Carpenter. Not to mention the signing of Beltran and maturation from Craig and Carpenter…

So this correlation using Pujols is not one any smart baseball mind would agree with. Because one great baseball player doesn’t carry an entire team. This isn’t the NBA….

And the angels would have started winning the World Series and making it to post season as soon as they got pujols