For the Matheny haters

[alw80]

Affliction bros and weirdo religious fanatics used to pack the house to watch MM manage.

[Ozziesfan41]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

You do realize that fans that didn’t like MM didn’t
Fire him anyway right so it’s kind of stupid to call them out for something they had no control over. You should be calling out Mo and Dewitt for the great twice fired currently unemployed as manager MM

Do you think his team was loaded in KC, Ozzies?

Well if he’s so great surely he wouldn’t have been fired even if they were losing. People are saying he shouldn’t have been fired surely the great Mo who you defend should have seen that and so should the royals and so should other teams. But I’m sure cranny and and Matt are the two who can appreciate and recognize the genius That is MM unlike 30
Major league teams who don’t but you’re not a professional like those who run the 30 teams so you must not have an opinion on it

[Cranny]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

You do realize that fans that didn’t like MM didn’t
Fire him anyway right so it’s kind of stupid to call them out for something they had no control over. You should be calling out Mo and Dewitt for the great twice fired currently unemployed as manager MM

Do you think his team was loaded in KC, Ozzies?

Well if he’s so great surely he wouldn’t have been fired even if they were losing. People are saying he shouldn’t have been fired surely the great Mo who you defend should have seen that and so should the royals and so should other teams. But I’m sure cranny and and Matt are the two who can appreciate and recognize the genius That is MM unlike 30
Major league teams who don’t but you’re not a professional like those who run the 30 teams so you must not have an opinion on it

Genius? No. Decent manager with an MLB record to prove it? Yes. Are you an expert in managing, Ozzies? What are your credentials?

[Ozziesfan41]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

You do realize that fans that didn’t like MM didn’t
Fire him anyway right so it’s kind of stupid to call them out for something they had no control over. You should be calling out Mo and Dewitt for the great twice fired currently unemployed as manager MM

Do you think his team was loaded in KC, Ozzies?

Well if he’s so great surely he wouldn’t have been fired even if they were losing. People are saying he shouldn’t have been fired surely the great Mo who you defend should have seen that and so should the royals and so should other teams. But I’m sure cranny and and Matt are the two who can appreciate and recognize the genius That is MM unlike 30
Major league teams who don’t but you’re not a professional like those who run the 30 teams so you must not have an opinion on it

Genius? No. Decent manager with an MLB record to prove it? Yes. Are you an expert in managing, Ozzies? What are your credentials?

Oh I’m no expert but Mo fired him when they were a game over .500 they won a lot of games after that the royals fired him no organization has hired him since as a manager I would think if he was recognized as a top manager by organizations he would be managing right now. But like I said I’m sure you know more than 30 major league teams lol

[sdaltons]

Affliction bros and weirdo religious fanatics used to pack the house to watch MM manage.

Amen.

[sdaltons]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

You do realize that fans that didn’t like MM didn’t
Fire him anyway right so it’s kind of stupid to call them out for something they had no control over. You should be calling out Mo and Dewitt for the great twice fired currently unemployed as manager MM

Do you think his team was loaded in KC, Ozzies?

Well if he’s so great surely he wouldn’t have been fired even if they were losing. People are saying he shouldn’t have been fired surely the great Mo who you defend should have seen that and so should the royals and so should other teams. But I’m sure cranny and and Matt are the two who can appreciate and recognize the genius That is MM unlike 30
Major league teams who don’t but you’re not a professional like those who run the 30 teams so you must not have an opinion on it

Genius? No. Decent manager with an MLB record to prove it? Yes. Are you an expert in managing, Ozzies? What are your credentials?

Oh I’m no expert but Mo fired him when they were a game over .500 they won a lot of games after that the royals fired him no organization has hired him since as a manager I would think if he was recognized as a top manager by organizations he would be managing right now. But like I said I’m sure you know more than 30 major league teams lol

Oh yeah? Well those other teams that haven't hired him...what are their credentials anyways!!!

[JuanAgosto]

I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.

So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated man and complicated career.

Nothing naive about it. John Mozeliak's career is not complicated to summarize. Experienced success with the tail-end of players acquired by Jocketty. Was lucky to be a part of the TLR, Pujols, Molina, etc years.

Once TLR left, Johnny tried to be the "brains" of the StL Cardinals. He wanted total control, so he hired puds. If anyone questioned him, they were gone.

When Jeff Luhnow left, Johnny boy was exposed. So, the organization turned to cheating. Luhnow was a better evaluator. So the Cardinals hacked his system. They got caught. Mo offered a scapegoat.

Without the benefit of hacking Luhnow's plans, Johnny boy was exposed again. And the Cardinals haven't been a contender since.

Your "complex" man is nothing more than a fraud. He sucks at evaluating talent. He sucks at recruiting free agents. And he is scared to make a real trade. Hell, old man DeWitt had to step in to close the Arenado trade. John boy couldn't finish it on his own.

[WLTFE]

I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.

So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated man and complicated career.

Nothing naive about it. John Mozeliak's career is not complicated to summarize. Experienced success with the tail-end of players acquired by Jocketty. Was lucky to be a part of the TLR, Pujols, Molina, etc years.

Once TLR left, Johnny tried to be the "brains" of the StL Cardinals. He wanted total control, so he hired puds. If anyone questioned him, they were gone.

When Jeff Luhnow left, Johnny boy was exposed. So, the organization turned to cheating. Luhnow was a better evaluator. So the Cardinals hacked his system. They got caught. Mo offered a scapegoat.

Without the benefit of hacking Luhnow's plans, Johnny boy was exposed again. And the Cardinals haven't been a contender since.

Your "complex" man is nothing more than a fraud. He sucks at evaluating talent. He sucks at recruiting free agents. And he is scared to make a real trade. Hell, old man DeWitt had to step in to close the Arenado trade. John boy couldn't finish it on his own.

My God man...what have you done?... you will unleash pages of responses from front office (donkey) kissers!...Sir....have you no shame!

[ecleme22]

I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Let’s be real: MM gets bad marks as an in-game manager and Cranny is trying to weasel out of admitting that.

[Stlcardsblues]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

Sat here for years saying people were misguiding their complaints against Matheny and that Mo was the issue. People kept telling me firing Matheny would fix our issues. Now they have seen I was correct that Mo was a massive issue.

[WLTFE]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

Sat here for years saying people were misguiding their complaints against Matheny and that Mo was the issue. People kept telling me firing Matheny would fix our issues. Now they have seen I was correct that Mo was a massive issue.

+1...and paid $2,000,000 a year for this [censored].

[ecleme22]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

Sat here for years saying people were misguiding their complaints against Matheny and that Mo was the issue. People kept telling me firing Matheny would fix our issues. Now they have seen I was correct that Mo was a massive issue.

Matheny still was a problem….

[JuanAgosto]

I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.

So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated man and complicated career.

Nothing naive about it. John Mozeliak's career is not complicated to summarize. Experienced success with the tail-end of players acquired by Jocketty. Was lucky to be a part of the TLR, Pujols, Molina, etc years.

Once TLR left, Johnny tried to be the "brains" of the StL Cardinals. He wanted total control, so he hired puds. If anyone questioned him, they were gone.

When Jeff Luhnow left, Johnny boy was exposed. So, the organization turned to cheating. Luhnow was a better evaluator. So the Cardinals hacked his system. They got caught. Mo offered a scapegoat.

Without the benefit of hacking Luhnow's plans, Johnny boy was exposed again. And the Cardinals haven't been a contender since.

Your "complex" man is nothing more than a fraud. He sucks at evaluating talent. He sucks at recruiting free agents. And he is scared to make a real trade. Hell, old man DeWitt had to step in to close the Arenado trade. John boy couldn't finish it on his own.

My God man...what have you done?... you will unleash pages of responses from front office (donkey) kissers!...Sir....have you no shame!

Hahahaha. Its a combination of bluntly expressing the ugly truth to the Mozeliak fan club. And providing entertainment from the exploding heads.

[WLTFE]

I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.

So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated man and complicated career.

Nothing naive about it. John Mozeliak's career is not complicated to summarize. Experienced success with the tail-end of players acquired by Jocketty. Was lucky to be a part of the TLR, Pujols, Molina, etc years.

Once TLR left, Johnny tried to be the "brains" of the StL Cardinals. He wanted total control, so he hired puds. If anyone questioned him, they were gone.

When Jeff Luhnow left, Johnny boy was exposed. So, the organization turned to cheating. Luhnow was a better evaluator. So the Cardinals hacked his system. They got caught. Mo offered a scapegoat.

Without the benefit of hacking Luhnow's plans, Johnny boy was exposed again. And the Cardinals haven't been a contender since.

Your "complex" man is nothing more than a fraud. He sucks at evaluating talent. He sucks at recruiting free agents. And he is scared to make a real trade. Hell, old man DeWitt had to step in to close the Arenado trade. John boy couldn't finish it on his own.

My God man...what have you done?... you will unleash pages of responses from front office (donkey) kissers!...Sir....have you no shame!

Hahahaha. Its a combination of bluntly expressing the ugly truth to the Mozeliak fan club. And providing entertainment from the exploding heads.

But the carnage!... have you no decency!

[JuanAgosto]

I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.

So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated man and complicated career.

Nothing naive about it. John Mozeliak's career is not complicated to summarize. Experienced success with the tail-end of players acquired by Jocketty. Was lucky to be a part of the TLR, Pujols, Molina, etc years.

Once TLR left, Johnny tried to be the "brains" of the StL Cardinals. He wanted total control, so he hired puds. If anyone questioned him, they were gone.

When Jeff Luhnow left, Johnny boy was exposed. So, the organization turned to cheating. Luhnow was a better evaluator. So the Cardinals hacked his system. They got caught. Mo offered a scapegoat.

Without the benefit of hacking Luhnow's plans, Johnny boy was exposed again. And the Cardinals haven't been a contender since.

Your "complex" man is nothing more than a fraud. He sucks at evaluating talent. He sucks at recruiting free agents. And he is scared to make a real trade. Hell, old man DeWitt had to step in to close the Arenado trade. John boy couldn't finish it on his own.

My God man...what have you done?... you will unleash pages of responses from front office (donkey) kissers!...Sir....have you no shame!

Hahahaha. Its a combination of bluntly expressing the ugly truth to the Mozeliak fan club. And providing entertainment from the exploding heads.

But the carnage!... have you no decency!

The Mozeliak and Marmol fans hate my posts.

[An Old Friend]

It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

It’s nice to see someone lay this out.

The idea that Shildt fixed the defense by his presence and focus on fundamentals seemingly overnight was always a preposterous narrative that some fans desperately wanted to believe.

There are numerous examples of a in-year change in manager yielding drastically different results.

Then surely you can list or reference a handful of them with context. I’m listening.