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hullie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 14:40 pm Gorman needs to take his glove and burn it.

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:42 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

He is unquestionably the highest ceiling LH bat on the roster right now.
And his glove at either 3B or 2B is just fine.
The issue you have in the thread is that many are so invested in their own bias and preconceived conclusions that it blinds them to actual baseball realities.
I suffer no such shortcoming.

woofy25 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 14:56 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:46 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 07:25 am Considering the cardinals probably have no plans to be competitive next season, the Cardinals might as well try to get a full season out of them. Gorman is heading into his prime years. Walker will be just beginning his prime years next season. Gorman is a better hitter than he was in 2024. Walker is having a good second half. I’d give them both another season. Trading either, potentially too early, most likely outweighs any return the cardinals are going to get back. I’d be more inclined to trade Donovan if they’re not going to extend him, along with Nootbaar.
It sure would be nice to be able to tell a guy in October what the plan is for him the following season, so he can actually create and execute an offseason plan.

Assumption not in evidence.

What is the assumption you're referring to?

woofy25 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 14:59 pm

hullie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 14:40 pm Gorman needs to take his glove and burn it.

Or maybe he needs an offseason to get used to playing a position he hasn't played since 2019?

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:15 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

Yea he’s awesome a poor defensive .730 ops platoon guy definitely who the cards need to build around. I remember all the posts about Carlson looking a lot better at the plate at times too and how young he was and how he was going to break out. And while his offense is a step up from areando his defense is a major step down

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 16:31 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:15 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

Yea he’s awesome a poor defensive .730 ops platoon guy definitely who the cards need to build around. I remember all the posts about Carlson looking a lot better at the plate at times too and how young he was and how he was going to break out. And while his offense is a step up from areando his defense is a major step down

Talk about a player that has been on a clean decline, Dylan Carlson.

2021: .780 OPS/115 OPS+/3.2 bWAR
2022: .695 OPS/99 OPS+/1.8 bWAR
2023: .651 OPS/78 OPS+/0.5 bWAR
2024: .563 OPS/62 OPS+/-1.2 bWAR

And just when you thought he couldn’t get worse

2025: .515 OPS/44 OPS+/-1.3 bWAR

hullie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 16:28 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 14:59 pm

hullie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 14:40 pm Gorman needs to take his glove and burn it.

Or maybe he needs an offseason to get used to playing a position he hasn't played since 2019?

Well he can buy a new glove in the offseason

renostl wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 15:28 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:42 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

He is unquestionably the highest ceiling LH bat on the roster right now.
And his glove at either 3B or 2B is just fine.
The issue you have in the thread is that many are so invested in their own bias and preconceived conclusions that it blinds them to actual baseball realities.
I suffer no such shortcoming.

Gorman if going to 3B has raised the bar on what is needed from him.
You once championed that opinion. It has always been attached to a player that
brings average or less than average defense to a position.

Top 5 OPS at 2B is .750 : 3B is .829

Gorman needs to bring his 2023 production back. Certainly doable since he has done it
but that has to be a goal of him at that position. We see the current costs of that
to different degrees and that's exacerbated when more than 1 position does it.

Cards have 3 positions that they crack the top 10 in OPS by position with qualified PA. Herrera would be #5 at DH if
he can maintain his .845. They are BD @2B, WC @1B, and AB @ RF.
If they accept the lower productions at C, CF, and SS they need to get it from LF/RF and 3B.

Statically they keep BD at 2B or trade him vs going to the outfield. Winn is good at SS. JJ not here but we
know that's a matter of time needs to get his PT at 2B/3B or the outfield until an opening
occurs. IF I stupidly project his MiLB STATS going forward today his biggest impacts are
at 3B, LF and CF. and we know that the young guy will get that time barring injury.
Gorman produces, fantastic open 2B trade BD for SP or put the kid in CF like Merrill if able or LF
if not.

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 19:05 pm

renostl wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 15:28 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:42 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

He is unquestionably the highest ceiling LH bat on the roster right now.
And his glove at either 3B or 2B is just fine.
The issue you have in the thread is that many are so invested in their own bias and preconceived conclusions that it blinds them to actual baseball realities.
I suffer no such shortcoming.

Gorman if going to 3B has raised the bar on what is needed from him.
You once championed that opinion. It has always been attached to a player that
brings average or less than average defense to a position.

Top 5 OPS at 2B is .750 : 3B is .829

Gorman needs to bring his 2023 production back. Certainly doable since he has done it
but that has to be a goal of him at that position. We see the current costs of that
to different degrees and that's exacerbated when more than 1 position does it.

Cards have 3 positions that they crack the top 10 in OPS by position with qualified PA. Herrera would be #5 at DH if
he can maintain his .845. They are BD @2B, WC @1B, and AB @ RF.
If they accept the lower productions at C, CF, and SS they need to get it from LF/RF and 3B.

Statically they keep BD at 2B or trade him vs going to the outfield. Winn is good at SS. JJ not here but we
know that's a matter of time needs to get his PT at 2B/3B or the outfield until an opening
occurs. IF I stupidly project his MiLB STATS going forward today his biggest impacts are
at 3B, LF and CF. and we know that the young guy will get that time barring injury.
Gorman produces, fantastic open 2B trade BD for SP or put the kid in CF like Merrill if able or LF
if not.

It is quite simple.
If LF hitting Gorman can hit 25+ HR, score 80 and drive in 80 across 600 PA's while playing roughly average defense at either 2nd or 3rd, he is an extremely valuable asset.
For his career, Gorman is hitting 29 HR in every 600 PA's.
And 82 RBI.
And 75 runs.
At age 25, with sporadic playing time and with constant position shuffles.
The ceiling is therefore clearly much higher - even though he is already being the most productive LH bat on the roster.
Production like that is extremely hard to find from a LH hitting 2b/3b.
Wetherholt, Winn, and Gorman need to be the 2b,SS, 3b alignment for the next several years.

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 19:05 pm

renostl wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 15:28 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:42 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

He is unquestionably the highest ceiling LH bat on the roster right now.
And his glove at either 3B or 2B is just fine.
The issue you have in the thread is that many are so invested in their own bias and preconceived conclusions that it blinds them to actual baseball realities.
I suffer no such shortcoming.

Gorman if going to 3B has raised the bar on what is needed from him.
You once championed that opinion. It has always been attached to a player that
brings average or less than average defense to a position.

Top 5 OPS at 2B is .750 : 3B is .829

Gorman needs to bring his 2023 production back. Certainly doable since he has done it
but that has to be a goal of him at that position. We see the current costs of that
to different degrees and that's exacerbated when more than 1 position does it.

Cards have 3 positions that they crack the top 10 in OPS by position with qualified PA. Herrera would be #5 at DH if
he can maintain his .845. They are BD @2B, WC @1B, and AB @ RF.
If they accept the lower productions at C, CF, and SS they need to get it from LF/RF and 3B.

Statically they keep BD at 2B or trade him vs going to the outfield. Winn is good at SS. JJ not here but we
know that's a matter of time needs to get his PT at 2B/3B or the outfield until an opening
occurs. IF I stupidly project his MiLB STATS going forward today his biggest impacts are
at 3B, LF and CF. and we know that the young guy will get that time barring injury.
Gorman produces, fantastic open 2B trade BD for SP or put the kid in CF like Merrill if able or LF
if not.

It is quite simple.
If LF hitting Gorman can hit 25+ HR, score 80 and drive in 80 across 600 PA's while playing roughly average defense at either 2nd or 3rd, he is an extremely valuable asset.
For his career, Gorman is hitting 29 HR in every 600 PA's.
And 82 RBI.
And 75 runs.
At age 25, with sporadic playing time and with constant position shuffles.
The ceiling is therefore clearly much higher - even though he is already being the most productive LH bat on the roster.
Production like that is extremely hard to find from a LH hitting 2b/3b.
Wetherholt, Winn, and Gorman need to be the 2b,SS, 3b alignment for the next several years.

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 19:05 pm

renostl wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 15:28 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:42 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

He is unquestionably the highest ceiling LH bat on the roster right now.
And his glove at either 3B or 2B is just fine.
The issue you have in the thread is that many are so invested in their own bias and preconceived conclusions that it blinds them to actual baseball realities.
I suffer no such shortcoming.

Gorman if going to 3B has raised the bar on what is needed from him.
You once championed that opinion. It has always been attached to a player that
brings average or less than average defense to a position.

Top 5 OPS at 2B is .750 : 3B is .829

Gorman needs to bring his 2023 production back. Certainly doable since he has done it
but that has to be a goal of him at that position. We see the current costs of that
to different degrees and that's exacerbated when more than 1 position does it.

Cards have 3 positions that they crack the top 10 in OPS by position with qualified PA. Herrera would be #5 at DH if
he can maintain his .845. They are BD @2B, WC @1B, and AB @ RF.
If they accept the lower productions at C, CF, and SS they need to get it from LF/RF and 3B.

Statically they keep BD at 2B or trade him vs going to the outfield. Winn is good at SS. JJ not here but we
know that's a matter of time needs to get his PT at 2B/3B or the outfield until an opening
occurs. IF I stupidly project his MiLB STATS going forward today his biggest impacts are
at 3B, LF and CF. and we know that the young guy will get that time barring injury.
Gorman produces, fantastic open 2B trade BD for SP or put the kid in CF like Merrill if able or LF
if not.

It is quite simple.
If LF hitting Gorman can hit 25+ HR, score 80 and drive in 80 across 600 PA's while playing roughly average defense at either 2nd or 3rd, he is an extremely valuable asset.
For his career, Gorman is hitting 29 HR in every 600 PA's.
And 82 RBI.
And 75 runs.
At age 25, with sporadic playing time and with constant position shuffles.
The ceiling is therefore clearly much higher - even though he is already being the most productive LH bat on the roster.
Production like that is extremely hard to find from a LH hitting 2b/3b.
Wetherholt, Winn, and Gorman need to be the 2b,SS, 3b alignment for the next several years.

renostl wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 20:15 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 19:05 pm

renostl wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 15:28 pm

Melville wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 13:42 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:52 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 12:16 pm Gorman last 90 PA's:

6 HR
.481 SLG%
.800 OPS

If he can do that over a full season, then we can live w/an average (even slightly below average) glove at 3rd base.

Yea his last 90 days aren’t bad but small sample sizes can look good but his season doesn’t look good and his last two seasons suck and his career is very meh in 1400 plate appearances

Even his season OPS of .726 OPS+104 is a good size upgrade over what we’ve gotten from 3B offensively. Heck he’s not far off of Donovan now in OPS (.751). And since June 1st Gorman has an .820+ OPS.

He is unquestionably the highest ceiling LH bat on the roster right now.
And his glove at either 3B or 2B is just fine.
The issue you have in the thread is that many are so invested in their own bias and preconceived conclusions that it blinds them to actual baseball realities.
I suffer no such shortcoming.

Gorman if going to 3B has raised the bar on what is needed from him.
You once championed that opinion. It has always been attached to a player that
brings average or less than average defense to a position.

Top 5 OPS at 2B is .750 : 3B is .829

Gorman needs to bring his 2023 production back. Certainly doable since he has done it
but that has to be a goal of him at that position. We see the current costs of that
to different degrees and that's exacerbated when more than 1 position does it.

Cards have 3 positions that they crack the top 10 in OPS by position with qualified PA. Herrera would be #5 at DH if
he can maintain his .845. They are BD @2B, WC @1B, and AB @ RF.
If they accept the lower productions at C, CF, and SS they need to get it from LF/RF and 3B.

Statically they keep BD at 2B or trade him vs going to the outfield. Winn is good at SS. JJ not here but we
know that's a matter of time needs to get his PT at 2B/3B or the outfield until an opening
occurs. IF I stupidly project his MiLB STATS going forward today his biggest impacts are
at 3B, LF and CF. and we know that the young guy will get that time barring injury.
Gorman produces, fantastic open 2B trade BD for SP or put the kid in CF like Merrill if able or LF
if not.

It is quite simple.
If LF hitting Gorman can hit 25+ HR, score 80 and drive in 80 across 600 PA's while playing roughly average defense at either 2nd or 3rd, he is an extremely valuable asset.
For his career, Gorman is hitting 29 HR in every 600 PA's.
And 82 RBI.
And 75 runs.
At age 25, with sporadic playing time and with constant position shuffles.
The ceiling is therefore clearly much higher - even though he is already being the most productive LH bat on the roster.
Production like that is extremely hard to find from a LH hitting 2b/3b.
Wetherholt, Winn, and Gorman need to be the 2b,SS, 3b alignment for the next several years.

It's been since 2023 when he exceeded a OPS of .800.
He needs to bring that production. His play and production is a part of the reason his sporadic playing time.
A average or less than average glove and a continuation of a .725 OPS IMO isn't enough not with the current team make up.
Most of us want him to succeed. I'd love to see it.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Aug 2025 19:52 pm I’m surprised more batters aren’t laying down more bunts on Gorman