Liberatore is not a SP

[opti mist]

Best Posts in this thread

by 11WSChamps » 07 Apr 2025 19:51 pm
He should be starting.
The team has nothing to lose and if he breaks out its a bonus for the future.
He has more upside than McGreevy or Graceffo and if he bombs after 15 or so starts then Bloom knows what his role as a lefty in the pen will be going forward and settle the issue once and for all.
His first two starts this season have been far from disasters.
His value as a possible future starter far outweighs a non-closer role in the BP.

by Bob Kunush » 07 Apr 2025 19:44 pm
He absolutely should be starting this year. We need to give him every opportunity to see if he can start. If after an extended chance he is not succeeding he can always go back to the bullpen. He has actually pitched a lot of good innings this year as a starter, but has had the two hiccup innings. Part of the learning experience.

by An Old Friend » 07 Apr 2025 20:05 pm
11 strikeouts, 0 walks, 2.36 FIP / 2.54 xFIP through 2 starts.
Yeah, he should get a long leash.

by Talkin' Baseball » 07 Apr 2025 20:06 pm
He is a starting pitcher. I'm betting that 20 starts will show that.

Opti

[RichieRichSTL]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

[Baseball Savant]

The organization messed with him too much, he found a way to get hitters out with slider/cutter addition

[Charlie Smoke]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

Eat a huge, smelly dick, Richie. You rooted agains't him.

[Futuregm2]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

The OP sounds like you thought they mismanaged him by having him be a SP.

[3dender]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

You wrote:

Literally, Mo is an idiot. How many times does he have to have Liberatore in the starting rotation and fail before he accepts that he has more value in the BP?

Nowhere did you mention mismanagement, you were clearly saying you think he serves the team better in the BP, and that anyone who doesn't realize that is an idiot. Look at your thread title ffs.

I honestly didn't have much hope for Lib becoming a decent starter either, but the difference between us is that I didn't call people idiots for thinking otherwise, or even feel the need to make any proclamations since I didn't feel that certain about it.

It's pretty great actually not feeling the need to make confident, insulting assertions when not all the information is known. Maybe try it?

[JDW]

One of the best decisions of the season.
Oh oh, now I'm on the hot seat if he has a bad outing.

[RichieRichSTL]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

Eat a huge, smelly dick, Richie. You rooted agains't him.

What are you ten years old? Act like a grown man, you are embarrassing yourself!

[RichieRichSTL]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

The OP sounds like you thought they mismanaged him by having him be a SP.

I thought they had ruined him as a starting pitcher. It turns out their jerking him back and forth between starting, the BP and the minors only delayed him from finding what works best for him, it didn't f**k up his psyche.

[RichieRichSTL]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

You wrote:

Literally, Mo is an idiot. How many times does he have to have Liberatore in the starting rotation and fail before he accepts that he has more value in the BP?

Nowhere did you mention mismanagement, you were clearly saying you think he serves the team better in the BP, and that anyone who doesn't realize that is an idiot. Look at your thread title ffs.

I honestly didn't have much hope for Lib becoming a decent starter either, but the difference between us is that I didn't call people idiots for thinking otherwise, or even feel the need to make any proclamations since I didn't feel that certain about it.

It's pretty great actually not feeling the need to make confident, insulting assertions when not all the information is known. Maybe try it?

I know what I wrote. Has it ever occurred to you that I thought they had f**ked him up as a starter by their mismanagement of him and that I thought the best way for them to salvage something was the have him as a BP piece? It turns out he was more resilient than I figured. I admit I was wrong. Considering some of Mo's recent high profile flameout's it wasn't absurd to think that Liberatore could fall in thst category.

Re: assertions. That's what we all do. Sometimes we make bold ones based on years of observations of the process and are wrong. I will admit that I misread, but I'm not going to apologize for apparently missing on it.

[RichieRichSTL]

Literally, Mo is an idiot. How many times does he have to have Liberatore in the starting rotation and fail before he accepts that he has more value in the BP? I mean WTF Gus?

Is Mo trying to completely destroy his value? Still if it's between him and Mikolas... we'll good knowing you lizard man, don't let the door hit your (bleep) on the way out.

I got this one wrong. Apparently, despite their lack of clarity with his role and bouncing him around didn't completely throw him off, like it has other players.

[RichieRichSTL]

These posts are fun to look back on. I see a lot of the early posters are the typical negative complainers who still troll on here, especially when the team loses. They think every player who struggles is terrible forever and that every move made by the manager that doesn't work is the worst move ever. Then they mostly scurry away when things go well. Its almost a comedy act.

While I was definitely hoping for him to get a real chance to stick in the rotation this year, I was way more positive about him on the outside than I was on the inside. On the inside I was pretty skeptical that he was going to get it together, even if I believed that he had been grossly mishandled by the organization.

Glad to see him put it together. I'd be looking to lock him up long term as soon as he's willing.

It's not that we thought he was terrible. It was more so has this organization mismanaged him in an irreparable way? Fortunately, it appears not. But there is plenty of season left. Hopefully he continues to be solid.

You wrote:

Literally, Mo is an idiot. How many times does he have to have Liberatore in the starting rotation and fail before he accepts that he has more value in the BP?

Nowhere did you mention mismanagement, you were clearly saying you think he serves the team better in the BP, and that anyone who doesn't realize that is an idiot. Look at your thread title ffs.

I honestly didn't have much hope for Lib becoming a decent starter either, but the difference between us is that I didn't call people idiots for thinking otherwise, or even feel the need to make any proclamations since I didn't feel that certain about it.

It's pretty great actually not feeling the need to make confident, insulting assertions when not all the information is known. Maybe try it?

I called Mo an idiot. Mo is paid 5M to judge talent successfully and assemble a playoff caliber team. I saw Liberatore as another mishandled pitcher or player. Occasionally I probably go after those who attack me, especially if I perceive them to be a FO groupie... But generally speaking, I do not personally attack the layman here for disagreeing or wouldn't hold them accountable if they didn't 'see' what I 'see' regarding talent and/or proper use of a player. Mo, as a paid 'expert' whom the fans are indirectly paying his salary should expect to subject to some criticism for the product he is providing paying fans. I really dont have the same expectations for Cards Talk fans. We make educated guesses, based on observations over time and our understanding of the games. We aren't expected to know more or produce like a Mozaliek. If I think someone on Cards Talk is wrong, IMHO, I dont hold them to the same standard, therefore, the 'idiot' label should usually be limited to the paid professional making what many might consider to be dumb moves.

If someone chooses to apply it to themselves as they happen to.agree with Mo, I can't help that and won't accept that I am calling them an idiot.

[RichieRichSTL]

So far Liberatore has succeeded where he hadn't before as a SP. Assuming he continues to show himself to be a solid starter, the question will be this: in different hands would he have blossomed sooner?

We were spoiled with Dave Duncan. He had a habit of getting the most out of pitchers who struggled elsewhere. I believe one of the reasons they've struggled so much with developing an ace is that we don't have a HOF level pitching coach helping the starters to find the best version of themselves AND we have a FO who look for yes man rather than trusted advisors among manager and his staff.

[Adam2]

So far Liberatore has succeeded where he hadn't before as a SP. Assuming he continues to show himself to be a solid starter, the question will be this: in different hands would he have blossomed sooner?

We were spoiled with Dave Duncan. He had a habit of getting the most out of pitchers who struggled elsewhere. I believe one of the reasons they've struggled so much with developing an ace is that we don't have a HOF level pitching coach helping the starters to find the best version of themselves AND we have a FO who look for yes man rather than trusted advisors among manager and his staff.

We have no way of answering that question, so questioning how he would have done in different hands is pointless

[renostl]

So far Liberatore has succeeded where he hadn't before as a SP. Assuming he continues to show himself to be a solid starter, the question will be this: in different hands would he have blossomed sooner?

We were spoiled with Dave Duncan. He had a habit of getting the most out of pitchers who struggled elsewhere. I believe one of the reasons they've struggled so much with developing an ace is that we don't have a HOF level pitching coach helping the starters to find the best version of themselves AND we have a FO who look for yes man rather than trusted advisors among manager and his staff.

He is 25. There are top prospects in this years draft who are 21. He has had success in MLB before this season.
TB most might have thought that he may be a player that takes a couple seasons, o/w why not hold him?
They did like him enough to make him #16th overall out of HS.

I think when we take the "he may have done better if" we should also wonder
if he'd done worse. His experiences also helped him.
He's still not a finished product.

[RichieRichSTL]

So far Liberatore has succeeded where he hadn't before as a SP. Assuming he continues to show himself to be a solid starter, the question will be this: in different hands would he have blossomed sooner?

We were spoiled with Dave Duncan. He had a habit of getting the most out of pitchers who struggled elsewhere. I believe one of the reasons they've struggled so much with developing an ace is that we don't have a HOF level pitching coach helping the starters to find the best version of themselves AND we have a FO who look for yes man rather than trusted advisors among manager and his staff.

He is 25. There are top prospects in this years draft who are 21. He has had success in MLB before this season.
TB most might have thought that he may be a player that takes a couple seasons, o/w why not hold him?
They did like him enough to make him #16th overall out of HS.

I think when we take the "he may have done better if" we should also wonder
if he'd done worse. His experiences also helped him.
He's still not a finished product.

You may be right, but Mo has had a history in the last decade of not handling prospects well. I do think its good theyve stopped f***ing around with him and have in a regular role.