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ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

I think Gorman and Saggese, and Fermin, will be looked at closely at3b

I don’t think TS needs 500PA at 3b, but he will get a heavy dose of PAs.

Jatalk wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 06:49 am I’ve seen enough of Gorman. I have not given up on Saggese.

Agree.

rightthinker4 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 19:43 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 06:49 am I’ve seen enough of Gorman. I have not given up on Saggese.

Agree.

Gorman is NOT a third baseman. Not unless he miraculously improves defensively. He was bad at second, but third... no way. I haven't been all that impressed with Saggese's arm strength, but perhaps I am wrong. Fermin should definitely get more of a look. Seems like Oli just never gave him much of a chance. None of these guys screams every day lock down 3B starter. If Nado is indeed gone and Donovan traded, then there will certainly be opportunity for someone to grab the position. We shall see....

I at least can see Saggese being a super utility guy.
Although his defense is kind of mediocre.
At least he can give you a competitive AB.
Gorman on the other hand mesmerizes people with his raw power.
But that is his only tool! He has nothing between the ears.
Don’t see him emerging. Hopefully I’m proven wrong and I’ll gladly admit it if it happens.

Cardinals1964 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 15:33 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:44 pm

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 11:07 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 10:48 am

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 10:09 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 09:02 am Saggese isn't going to be at 2nd base or platooning w/Gorman, he's nothing more than a back of the bench player.

Saggese is J.A.G.

JJW is going to be at 2nd base, Gorman at 3rd base.

That’s kind of what a platoon is, isn’t it?

I could see him being a RHH Donnie

No, it's not a platoon.

JJW is going to be F-T at 2nd Base, once NADO is dealt Gorman F-T (until he losses it) at 3rd Base.

Saggese is J.A.G., not even close to being the hitter Donny is.

Former Texas League MVP (2023) Saggese
Scouting grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 50 | Run: 45 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 45

MLB Super Utility Player Donovan
Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 45 | Run: 45 | Arm: 45 | Field: 45 | Overall: 45

It’s a lot closer than you think.

Saggese’s plate discipline and bat to ball skills are nowhere near Donovan’s.

Donovan’s 10 HR’s and OPS .775 won’t be possible to replace.

Not really the point

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese had 1HR in AAA at 21.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 20:36 pm

Cardinals1964 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 15:33 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:44 pm

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 11:07 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 10:48 am

BleedingBleu wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 10:09 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 09:02 am Saggese isn't going to be at 2nd base or platooning w/Gorman, he's nothing more than a back of the bench player.

Saggese is J.A.G.

JJW is going to be at 2nd base, Gorman at 3rd base.

That’s kind of what a platoon is, isn’t it?

I could see him being a RHH Donnie

No, it's not a platoon.

JJW is going to be F-T at 2nd Base, once NADO is dealt Gorman F-T (until he losses it) at 3rd Base.

Saggese is J.A.G., not even close to being the hitter Donny is.

Former Texas League MVP (2023) Saggese
Scouting grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 50 | Run: 45 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 45

MLB Super Utility Player Donovan
Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 45 | Run: 45 | Arm: 45 | Field: 45 | Overall: 45

It’s a lot closer than you think.

Saggese’s plate discipline and bat to ball skills are nowhere near Donovan’s.

Donovan’s 10 HR’s and OPS .775 won’t be possible to replace.

Not really the point

I was being sarcastic.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 19:50 pm

rightthinker4 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 19:43 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 06:49 am I’ve seen enough of Gorman. I have not given up on Saggese.

Agree.

Gorman is NOT a third baseman. Not unless he miraculously improves defensively. He was bad at second, but third... no way. I haven't been all that impressed with Saggese's arm strength, but perhaps I am wrong. Fermin should definitely get more of a look. Seems like Oli just never gave him much of a chance. None of these guys screams every day lock down 3B starter. If Nado is indeed gone and Donovan traded, then there will certainly be opportunity for someone to grab the position. We shall see....

Agree with TS arm, he may have shown the most range on the team at 2B.
IF Gorman is what he displayed at 3B in 2025 you are correct there too he showed poor. He won't stay in MLB anyway as a glove guy.
Oddly where they may platoon because of recent memories 3B doesn't seem like the best position for it.

There seem to be a lot of irrational, emotional feelings about Saggese, for some reason. Not sure why. He's a young prospect that stumbled in AAA, after winning AA honors. They kinda started yanking him around defensively at Memphis, with even Mo's deciding he was just a super utility guy, apparently. It's like just because he has Italian heritage, and is a medium sized infielder, he must be the second coming of Daniel Descalso. Which, don't get me wrong, I loved me some DD, but Saggese is a much better hitter than Descalso. Saggese shows the ability to take the ball the other way, and eventually will start to hit some mistakes for pull side bombs. He's spent the last couple seasons doing what the Cardinals asked him to do defensively, and I think he'll start to hit, in short order, if given real opportunity this coming season. I think him and DD do have similarities, but I don't think hit ability is one of them.

I agree that Fermin deserves a shot at some point. I"m not sold on his defense but he deserves a chance to prove otherwise.

I will throw Bryan Torres and Cesar Prieto's names into the mix, too! Also questionable defense.

2024-25 Cardinal infielders

.AVG .OBP .SLG .OPS PA Age
.330 .428 .439 .867 957 28 Torres (0% MLB)
.284 .400 .447 .847 682 27 Fermin (22% MLB)
.289 .339 .447 .786 1056 27 Prieto (1% MLB)
.281 .347 .418 .765 1174 29 Donovan (99% MLB)
.263 .322 .405 .727 1062 24 Saggese (33% MLB)
.260 .312 .395 .707 1187 24 Winn (99% MLB)
.255 .308 .383 .691 1085 35 Arenado (99% MLB)
.204 .282 .399 .681 915 26 Gorman (88% MLB)

Assuming Donovan and Arenado are gone and of course Winn is SS, it should be a wide open competition at 2B and 3B!

.308 .422 .494 .916 645 23 Wetherholt (0% MLB) joins the mix, too.

May the best men win.

Cardinals1964 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 21:57 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese had 1HR in AAA at 21.

In how many games?

I'm not saying he is great. Just saying his numbers are as good as Wetherholt at that age. Being impressed by NCAA stats is fools gold. Check Caglianone's numbers.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese doesn't even belong in the same sentence talent-wise w/JJW.

NO chance I want him ever getting 500 PA's and NO WAY he'd hit as many HR's as Gorman in the same # of PA's.

Gorman
1 HR in every 21.36 PA's

Saggese
1 HR in every 115.6 PA's

Comping J.A.G to Gorman power wise is inane, comping him to JJW is just .

Saggese's a back of the bench utility player, J. A. G., not sure what the fascination is w/this guy.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:34 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese doesn't even belong in the same sentence talent-wise w/JJW.

NO chance I want him ever getting 500 PA's and NO WAY he'd hit as many HR's as Gorman in the same # of PA's.

Gorman
1 HR in every 21.36 PA's

Saggese
1 HR in every 115.6 PA's

Comping J.A.G to Gorman power wise is inane, comping him to JJW is just .

Saggese's a back of the bench utility player, J. A. G., not sure what the fascination is w/this guy.

Strong write. Now. Use that same logic and imagine the boards stance against NG at third.

Both moods live in the same bedroom.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:43 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:34 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese doesn't even belong in the same sentence talent-wise w/JJW.

NO chance I want him ever getting 500 PA's and NO WAY he'd hit as many HR's as Gorman in the same # of PA's.

Gorman
1 HR in every 21.36 PA's

Saggese
1 HR in every 115.6 PA's

Comping J.A.G to Gorman power wise is inane, comping him to JJW is just .

Saggese's a back of the bench utility player, J. A. G., not sure what the fascination is w/this guy.

Strong write. Now. Use that same logic and imagine the boards stance against NG at third.

Both moods live in the same bedroom.

Fully understand his defensive liabilities.

But I. Hererra is the guy they should be targeting for DH (as well as some time at 1st base to acclimate him to the position).

Gorman is fairly easy to manage if NADO is dealt and he's (likely) the everyday 3rd baseman (and he doesn't need to platoon as he's better in his career vs LHP--.717 OPS than Burleson in is career vs LHP--.606 OPS and I don't hear talk of Bumbles being platooned).

In games where the Cardinals have a lead in the late innings you can switch him out for a better defender.

But to comp his bat vs Saggese is a joke.

Gorman posses raw, natural power.

As I've posted multiple times, his glove will never make anyone forget any of the great Cardinals 3rd baseman.

For his career at 3rd base (SSS) he's a -3 DRS in 537 innings.

Could he keep his DRS under a -6? Maybe

If he does and HE HITS for POWER, then he would be an asset.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:54 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:43 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:34 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese doesn't even belong in the same sentence talent-wise w/JJW.

NO chance I want him ever getting 500 PA's and NO WAY he'd hit as many HR's as Gorman in the same # of PA's.

Gorman
1 HR in every 21.36 PA's

Saggese
1 HR in every 115.6 PA's

Comping J.A.G to Gorman power wise is inane, comping him to JJW is just .

Saggese's a back of the bench utility player, J. A. G., not sure what the fascination is w/this guy.

Strong write. Now. Use that same logic and imagine the boards stance against NG at third.

Both moods live in the same bedroom.

Fully understand his defensive liabilities.

But I. Hererra is the guy they should be targeting for DH (as well as some time at 1st base to acclimate him to the position).

Gorman is fairly easy to manage if NADO is dealt and he's (likely) the everyday 3rd baseman (and he doesn't need to platoon as he's better in his career vs LHP--.717 OPS than Burleson in is career vs LHP--.606 OPS and I don't hear talk of Bumbles being platooned).

In games where the Cardinals have a lead in the late innings you can switch him out for a better defender.

But to comp his bat vs Saggese is a joke.

Gorman posses raw, natural power.

As I've posted multiple times, his glove will never make anyone forget any of the great Cardinals 3rd baseman.

For his career at 3rd base (SSS) he's a -3 DRS in 537 innings.

Could he keep his DRS under a -6? Maybe

If he does and HE HITS for POWER, then he would be an asset.

Saggese is a better hitter than Gorman. Period. (Minus the raw power.)

If Saggese is given a long runway like Walker and Gorman have been allowed to have, you will be pleasantly surprised. Think young Matr Carpenter.

I know your feelings on him Rock, but I think you will happily eat crow if he gets a true shot!

rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:54 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:43 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Dec 2025 08:34 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 18:03 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 14:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 13:40 pm

Adam2 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2025 12:47 pm

rage-STL wrote: ↑27 Dec 2025 23:33 pm Nolan Gorman: 20 HR, 15 2B

Thomas Saggese: 10 HR, 20 2B

Anyone else excited about the potential between these two at 3B/2B?

Not particularly

Don't look now but Saggese had better power numbers in milb than Wetherholt.

You're not seriously comparing Saggese (J.A.G.) to a former NCAA batting champion and Top 5 MiLB prospect, right?

He's nowhere near the hitter JJW is and JJ will hit for way more power in MLB than Saggese (J.A.G.) ever will.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... gges000tho

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... ther000jj-

I stated a fact. AT 21 Saggese hit 26 HR 111 RBI .306 avg in AA and AAA.

The question is whether Gorman starts. I'd put Saggese there because given 500 plate appearances he would hit as many home runs as Gorman with better contact. He is young enough to progress.

Saggese. Winn. Wetherholt. Burleson.

Saggese doesn't even belong in the same sentence talent-wise w/JJW.

NO chance I want him ever getting 500 PA's and NO WAY he'd hit as many HR's as Gorman in the same # of PA's.

Gorman
1 HR in every 21.36 PA's

Saggese
1 HR in every 115.6 PA's

Comping J.A.G to Gorman power wise is inane, comping him to JJW is just .

Saggese's a back of the bench utility player, J. A. G., not sure what the fascination is w/this guy.

Strong write. Now. Use that same logic and imagine the boards stance against NG at third.

Both moods live in the same bedroom.

Fully understand his defensive liabilities.

But I. Hererra is the guy they should be targeting for DH (as well as some time at 1st base to acclimate him to the position).

Gorman is fairly easy to manage if NADO is dealt and he's (likely) the everyday 3rd baseman (and he doesn't need to platoon as he's better in his career vs LHP--.717 OPS than Burleson in is career vs LHP--.606 OPS and I don't hear talk of Bumbles being platooned).

In games where the Cardinals have a lead in the late innings you can switch him out for a better defender.

But to comp his bat vs Saggese is a joke.

Gorman posses raw, natural power.

As I've posted multiple times, his glove will never make anyone forget any of the great Cardinals 3rd baseman.

For his career at 3rd base (SSS) he's a -3 DRS in 537 innings.

Could he keep his DRS under a -6? Maybe

If he does and HE HITS for POWER, then he would be an asset.

I think that’s another good write. I don’t think we disagree much. I think we both think his glove alone is a liability. That’s my position.
The fielding affects on our young pitching, which is a major focus in this rebuild. They should be supported with at a minimum quality defense.

I still wouldn’t mind Nado this year. Goes more towards pitcher growth than his hitting.