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rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:02 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 20:28 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 08:40 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 02:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 14:55 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

Cease 2025
3.56 FiP

Mikolas 2025
5.03 Fip

I knew that and purposefully ignored it. FIP loves strike outs and Mikolas strikes out no one. Isn't it interesting that the overall ERA and WHIP are almost identical? I already admitted I fully understand Cease is the better pitcher. But, I do not understand how he can be worth 7/$210M.

I am a results orientated kind of guy. If you have a beautiful golf swing, drive it 320 yeards and shoot an 80 are you a better golfer than me if I hit it 210 straight down the middle every time and shoot an 80.

In any case, if we want to put up career numbers, and remember these are career numbers after Mikolas has just been awful the last 3 years,

Cease 65-58 W-L, 3.88 ERA 3.67 FIP 1.265 WHIP
Mikolas 72-75 W-L 4.24 ERA 4.18 FIP 1.216 WHIP

At the end of his 7 year contract, Dylan Cease will be the exact same age as Mikolas was at the end of this season. Do you think Cease will finish with a FIP under 4.18 at the end of that contract? Do you think he will improve his WHIP so it is better than 1.216? Cease strikes out a ton more people, FIP loves it. He walks a ton of people and it drags his results back down to mediocrity.

1)
We're in agreement that $210M is an overpay

2)
30 yrs old in a few weeks

3)
2021 -2024
3.52 ERA
3.32 FiP
1.21 WHiP
11.2 SO9 (This has to be why he's getting paid)
15.8 bWAR

Not a $30M "ACE" but a really solid $23-25M AAV #2

(Sadly that true "ACE" #1 is probably in the $40+M range now)

All fair points. I know I probably beat this dead horse too much. I am certain that 11.2 SO9 is getting him paid. That 3.8 BB9 is why this is an overpay and why his overall results dipped so close to Mikolas who has a lifetime 1.8 BB9. To Mattmitch's comment, if this signing helps the Jays win a WS, they won't care if it is an overpay. I am guessing most of us on this board won't care how much the Cards overpay a couple of players if it nets us a WS before we are all gone...

Agree

I have no issue w/the Jays "overpaying" if they think it helps them get over the hump.

And I could care less if BDWJr overpays for a star player or two in 2027/2028, he owes the fan base after this 2024-2026 debacle.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 21:26 pm Careful, somebody will come and suggest we trade Liberator and any other starters we’ve got left for prospects because starters are in such high demand.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 11:55 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:02 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 20:28 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 08:40 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 02:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 14:55 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

Cease 2025
3.56 FiP

Mikolas 2025
5.03 Fip

I knew that and purposefully ignored it. FIP loves strike outs and Mikolas strikes out no one. Isn't it interesting that the overall ERA and WHIP are almost identical? I already admitted I fully understand Cease is the better pitcher. But, I do not understand how he can be worth 7/$210M.

I am a results orientated kind of guy. If you have a beautiful golf swing, drive it 320 yeards and shoot an 80 are you a better golfer than me if I hit it 210 straight down the middle every time and shoot an 80.

In any case, if we want to put up career numbers, and remember these are career numbers after Mikolas has just been awful the last 3 years,

Cease 65-58 W-L, 3.88 ERA 3.67 FIP 1.265 WHIP
Mikolas 72-75 W-L 4.24 ERA 4.18 FIP 1.216 WHIP

At the end of his 7 year contract, Dylan Cease will be the exact same age as Mikolas was at the end of this season. Do you think Cease will finish with a FIP under 4.18 at the end of that contract? Do you think he will improve his WHIP so it is better than 1.216? Cease strikes out a ton more people, FIP loves it. He walks a ton of people and it drags his results back down to mediocrity.

1)
We're in agreement that $210M is an overpay

2)
30 yrs old in a few weeks

3)
2021 -2024
3.52 ERA
3.32 FiP
1.21 WHiP
11.2 SO9 (This has to be why he's getting paid)
15.8 bWAR

Not a $30M "ACE" but a really solid $23-25M AAV #2

(Sadly that true "ACE" #1 is probably in the $40+M range now)

All fair points. I know I probably beat this dead horse too much. I am certain that 11.2 SO9 is getting him paid. That 3.8 BB9 is why this is an overpay and why his overall results dipped so close to Mikolas who has a lifetime 1.8 BB9. To Mattmitch's comment, if this signing helps the Jays win a WS, they won't care if it is an overpay. I am guessing most of us on this board won't care how much the Cards overpay a couple of players if it nets us a WS before we are all gone...

Agree

I have no issue w/the Jays "overpaying" if they think it helps them get over the hump.

And I could care less if BDWJr overpays for a star player or two in 2027/2028, he owes the fan base after this 2024-2026 debacle.

No one to overpay for in 2027-2028. Worth FA classes in history because stars are getting locked down young now.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 12:16 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 11:55 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:02 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 20:28 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 08:40 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 02:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 14:55 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

Cease 2025
3.56 FiP

Mikolas 2025
5.03 Fip

I knew that and purposefully ignored it. FIP loves strike outs and Mikolas strikes out no one. Isn't it interesting that the overall ERA and WHIP are almost identical? I already admitted I fully understand Cease is the better pitcher. But, I do not understand how he can be worth 7/$210M.

I am a results orientated kind of guy. If you have a beautiful golf swing, drive it 320 yeards and shoot an 80 are you a better golfer than me if I hit it 210 straight down the middle every time and shoot an 80.

In any case, if we want to put up career numbers, and remember these are career numbers after Mikolas has just been awful the last 3 years,

Cease 65-58 W-L, 3.88 ERA 3.67 FIP 1.265 WHIP
Mikolas 72-75 W-L 4.24 ERA 4.18 FIP 1.216 WHIP

At the end of his 7 year contract, Dylan Cease will be the exact same age as Mikolas was at the end of this season. Do you think Cease will finish with a FIP under 4.18 at the end of that contract? Do you think he will improve his WHIP so it is better than 1.216? Cease strikes out a ton more people, FIP loves it. He walks a ton of people and it drags his results back down to mediocrity.

1)
We're in agreement that $210M is an overpay

2)
30 yrs old in a few weeks

3)
2021 -2024
3.52 ERA
3.32 FiP
1.21 WHiP
11.2 SO9 (This has to be why he's getting paid)
15.8 bWAR

Not a $30M "ACE" but a really solid $23-25M AAV #2

(Sadly that true "ACE" #1 is probably in the $40+M range now)

All fair points. I know I probably beat this dead horse too much. I am certain that 11.2 SO9 is getting him paid. That 3.8 BB9 is why this is an overpay and why his overall results dipped so close to Mikolas who has a lifetime 1.8 BB9. To Mattmitch's comment, if this signing helps the Jays win a WS, they won't care if it is an overpay. I am guessing most of us on this board won't care how much the Cards overpay a couple of players if it nets us a WS before we are all gone...

Agree

I have no issue w/the Jays "overpaying" if they think it helps them get over the hump.

And I could care less if BDWJr overpays for a star player or two in 2027/2028, he owes the fan base after this 2024-2026 debacle.

No one to overpay for in 2027-2028. Worth FA classes in history because stars are getting locked down young now.

Plenty available but will BDWJr pony up given how bad attendance is going to be in 2026?

2027
Logan GIlbert
Joe Ryan
Pablo Lopez
Sandy Alcantara

2028
Jose Ramirez
Ronald Acuna, Jr
Yordan Alvarez
Riley Greene
Hunter Brown
Cole Ragans

SamTheMan wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 12:16 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 11:55 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Dec 2025 09:02 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 20:28 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 08:40 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 02:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 14:55 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

Cease 2025
3.56 FiP

Mikolas 2025
5.03 Fip

I knew that and purposefully ignored it. FIP loves strike outs and Mikolas strikes out no one. Isn't it interesting that the overall ERA and WHIP are almost identical? I already admitted I fully understand Cease is the better pitcher. But, I do not understand how he can be worth 7/$210M.

I am a results orientated kind of guy. If you have a beautiful golf swing, drive it 320 yeards and shoot an 80 are you a better golfer than me if I hit it 210 straight down the middle every time and shoot an 80.

In any case, if we want to put up career numbers, and remember these are career numbers after Mikolas has just been awful the last 3 years,

Cease 65-58 W-L, 3.88 ERA 3.67 FIP 1.265 WHIP
Mikolas 72-75 W-L 4.24 ERA 4.18 FIP 1.216 WHIP

At the end of his 7 year contract, Dylan Cease will be the exact same age as Mikolas was at the end of this season. Do you think Cease will finish with a FIP under 4.18 at the end of that contract? Do you think he will improve his WHIP so it is better than 1.216? Cease strikes out a ton more people, FIP loves it. He walks a ton of people and it drags his results back down to mediocrity.

1)
We're in agreement that $210M is an overpay

2)
30 yrs old in a few weeks

3)
2021 -2024
3.52 ERA
3.32 FiP
1.21 WHiP
11.2 SO9 (This has to be why he's getting paid)
15.8 bWAR

Not a $30M "ACE" but a really solid $23-25M AAV #2

(Sadly that true "ACE" #1 is probably in the $40+M range now)

All fair points. I know I probably beat this dead horse too much. I am certain that 11.2 SO9 is getting him paid. That 3.8 BB9 is why this is an overpay and why his overall results dipped so close to Mikolas who has a lifetime 1.8 BB9. To Mattmitch's comment, if this signing helps the Jays win a WS, they won't care if it is an overpay. I am guessing most of us on this board won't care how much the Cards overpay a couple of players if it nets us a WS before we are all gone...

Agree

I have no issue w/the Jays "overpaying" if they think it helps them get over the hump.

And I could care less if BDWJr overpays for a star player or two in 2027/2028, he owes the fan base after this 2024-2026 debacle.

No one to overpay for in 2027-2028. Worth FA classes in history because stars are getting locked down young now.

Plenty available but will BDWJr pony up given how bad attendance is going to be in 2026?

2027
Logan GIlbert
Joe Ryan
Pablo Lopez
Sandy Alcantara

2028
Jose Ramirez
Ronald Acuna, Jr
Yordan Alvarez
Riley Greene
Hunter Brown
Cole Ragans

Donovan for Ragans