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Goldfan wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:37 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 15:59 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:29 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 13:58 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 12:04 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 08:58 am

makesnosense wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 07:05 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:17 pm No to the roid boys. It's a disgrace that Ortiz got in.

It is a disgrace only that he got in before Bonds. After all Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation.

Bonds is the greatest cheater in the history of baseball.

Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation and a top 10 of all time. But you keep on stumping for Rose.

The outcome of thousands of games were altered by roids. Rose was banned for life. Some of the roid boys continued to work in MLB jobs after leaving the game and I don't remember Bonds and his buddies getting banned for life.

You have zero evidence to back up your first statement. Why would Bonds be banned for life? After all he did what he did to make himself a better player. By being a better player it made the game better.

If you think there is no evidence of rampant roid use then there is no need to continue the conversation.

There are fellas who get busted today…….I don’t see them putting up steroid era stats…..so again the all-time Elites who might have roided would be HOFers regardless AND if most of the league was roiding then its a wash..

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 15:59 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:29 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 13:58 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 12:04 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 08:58 am

makesnosense wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 07:05 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:17 pm No to the roid boys. It's a disgrace that Ortiz got in.

It is a disgrace only that he got in before Bonds. After all Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation.

Bonds is the greatest cheater in the history of baseball.

Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation and a top 10 of all time. But you keep on stumping for Rose.

The outcome of thousands of games were altered by roids. Rose was banned for life. Some of the roid boys continued to work in MLB jobs after leaving the game and I don't remember Bonds and his buddies getting banned for life.

You have zero evidence to back up your first statement. Why would Bonds be banned for life? After all he did what he did to make himself a better player. By being a better player it made the game better.

If you think there is no evidence of rampant roid use then there is no need to continue the conversation.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:47 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:37 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 15:59 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:29 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 13:58 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 12:04 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 08:58 am

makesnosense wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 07:05 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:17 pm No to the roid boys. It's a disgrace that Ortiz got in.

It is a disgrace only that he got in before Bonds. After all Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation.

Bonds is the greatest cheater in the history of baseball.

Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation and a top 10 of all time. But you keep on stumping for Rose.

The outcome of thousands of games were altered by roids. Rose was banned for life. Some of the roid boys continued to work in MLB jobs after leaving the game and I don't remember Bonds and his buddies getting banned for life.

You have zero evidence to back up your first statement. Why would Bonds be banned for life? After all he did what he did to make himself a better player. By being a better player it made the game better.

If you think there is no evidence of rampant roid use then there is no need to continue the conversation.

There are fellas who get busted today…….I don’t see them putting up steroid era stats…..so again the all-time Elites who might have roided would be HOFers regardless AND if most of the league was roiding then its a wash..

Maris' home run record stood for 37 years until 2 men broke it in the same year. Both were roid boys. Roids rigged more games in baseball than anything in any sport.

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

Bushiro wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:20 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

I agree....sosa also never tested positive....arod...Manny ..Cano and others did....Ortiz's name was on a leaked report like sosa's and he's in....but I also can't believe... a clean player like Jim Edmonds... can't even get 5 percent to stay on the ballot....

An Old Friend wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 00:25 am

Bushiro wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:20 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

I agree....sosa also never tested positive....arod...Manny ..Cano and others did....Ortiz's name was on a leaked report like sosa's and he's in....but I also can't believe... a clean player like Jim Edmonds... can't even get 5 percent to stay on the ballot....

Edmonds got squeezed by a very crowded ballot. Him getting under 5% had nearly zero to do with his legitimacy as a candidate.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 23:04 pm

HOUCARD wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 17:26 pm Would not surprise me if a couple of Clemen's buddies, on the Astros, were juicing too. A couple little guys with quite a bit of power, for their size. I'm convinced Kenny Rogers was juicing when the Cards took them down in 2006. I watched him throw nothing but trash for years with the Rangers. He never touched 90mph the entire time. Then suddenly, in his early 40's, he's hitting the low 90's.

Jeff Bagwell
Ken Caminiti
Richard Hidalgo
Luis Gonzalez

Biggio didn’t participate and from what I understand, was always clean.

Jeff Kent eventually made his way to Houston but started before he got there.
Age 24-29: .779 OPS, 106 OPS+
Age 30-37: .908 OPS, 136 OPS+

ecleme22 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 00:52 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 00:25 am

Bushiro wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:20 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

I agree....sosa also never tested positive....arod...Manny ..Cano and others did....Ortiz's name was on a leaked report like sosa's and he's in....but I also can't believe... a clean player like Jim Edmonds... can't even get 5 percent to stay on the ballot....

Edmonds got squeezed by a very crowded ballot. Him getting under 5% had nearly zero to do with his legitimacy as a candidate.

Edmonds was all about he numbers. If he had 2k hits and 400 hr, he would’ve been in already

An Old Friend wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 00:25 am

Bushiro wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:20 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

I agree....sosa also never tested positive....arod...Manny ..Cano and others did....Ortiz's name was on a leaked report like sosa's and he's in....but I also can't believe... a clean player like Jim Edmonds... can't even get 5 percent to stay on the ballot....

Edmonds got squeezed by a very crowded ballot. Him getting under 5% had nearly zero to do with his legitimacy as a candidate.

Bushiro wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:20 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

I agree....sosa also never tested positive....arod...Manny ..Cano and others did....Ortiz's name was on a leaked report like sosa's and he's in....but I also can't believe... a clean player like Jim Edmonds... can't even get 5 percent to stay on the ballot....

makesnosense wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 06:40 am

Bushiro wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:20 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:05 pm Without a doubt

600 home runs and 1660+ RBI, 230+ stolen bases, another 400 + doubles and triples, 1500 runs scored, 2400 hits, nearly 1000 walks, an MVP, 6 top 10 finishes, 6 silver sluggers and the most astounding run of home run hitting in baseball history: 66, 63, 50, 64 in 4 consecutive seasons. The only player in MLB history to have 3 60 home-run season. Ruth, Judge, Maris and Raleigh have one. McGwire has 2. Sosa leads at 3.

The guy averaged 112 RBI a season. In 2021 he slashed .328 / .437 / .737 / 1.174 hit 64 home runs, scored 146 runs, had 103 extra base hit, drove in 160 RBI and had 425 total bases, all while be intentionally walked a major league leading 37 times and had over a 10 WAR. He had a 203 OPS+ meaning he was better than twice as good as the average MLB hitter.

For those that think it was just the steroids... before the 1998 breakout, he averaged 34 home runs, 26 steals and 100 RBI per season for the previous five years, was a Silver Slugger, All-Star and MVP vote getter three times. He was a (drat) fine, hell of a ballplayer his entire career.

He competed in the era he competed, the same as everyone else in that era, and put up undeniably hall of fame numbers.

I agree....sosa also never tested positive....arod...Manny ..Cano and others did....Ortiz's name was on a leaked report like sosa's and he's in....but I also can't believe... a clean player like Jim Edmonds... can't even get 5 percent to stay on the ballot....

Wait a minute. You don't think Edmonds was juiced?

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:29 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 13:58 pm

makesnosense wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 12:04 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 08:58 am

makesnosense wrote: ↑01 Dec 2025 07:05 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑30 Nov 2025 20:17 pm No to the roid boys. It's a disgrace that Ortiz got in.

It is a disgrace only that he got in before Bonds. After all Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation.

Bonds is the greatest cheater in the history of baseball.

Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation and a top 10 of all time. But you keep on stumping for Rose.

The outcome of thousands of games were altered by roids. Rose was banned for life. Some of the roid boys continued to work in MLB jobs after leaving the game and I don't remember Bonds and his buddies getting banned for life.

You have zero evidence to back up your first statement. Why would Bonds be banned for life? After all he did what he did to make himself a better player. By being a better player it made the game better.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:41 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:32 pm After all these years it still amazes how some just don't get what using steroids does to make a player (hitter, runner and pitcher) better than what they NATURALLY would be.

I don’t get it. I can see brute force. I can see it in football. I can see it helping runners who run . I can see throwing longer more often.

I don’t see how it helps the actual art of hitting a baseball. Or laying off sweepers. Pitch recognition. That I don’t see.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:41 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:41 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 14:32 pm After all these years it still amazes how some just don't get what using steroids does to make a player (hitter, runner and pitcher) better than what they NATURALLY would be.

I don’t get it. I can see brute force. I can see it in football. I can see it helping runners who run . I can see throwing longer more often.

I don’t see how it helps the actual art of hitting a baseball. Or laying off sweepers. Pitch recognition. That I don’t see.

Bigger, Stronger, Faster.............players already blessed BDog w/amazing hand-eye coordination that has allowed them to rise to the top (re: major leagues)being able to hit a baseball better than 99.9% of the world's population.

Combine that natural talent w/a Bigger, Stronger, Faster human being and you get an unnatural response.

Re:
East Germany & Russian's in the Olympics before steroids were banned.

Laying off sweepers, pitch recognition, ect....they already had or they would've never made it to MLB.

Now make them artificially BIGGER & STRONGER and well..............think massive BIG MAC, pumped up BAR-ROID and 165 lb S. Sosa balloning up to 225 lbs.

Also helps pitcher throw harder (re: BIGGER & STRONGER) as well as recover quicker.

Steroids is CHEATING, there is no gray area.