Goold: Donovan's market starting to materialize

[ramfandan]

If not KC , looking at the Guardians prospects both Khal Stephen RHP AA age 22 and 6-4 215 is 6th ranked in their system
and Braylon Doughty is a 19 yr. old RHP who is 6-1 196 expected MLB arrival in 2028 season 8th ranked Interesting youngster .

[Cardinals4Life]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

I'll just say I don't think what you're proposing is a good idea. Not with a $180 million budget.

If you want them to be a "true contender," then you're looking at, what, to start out? I'd say two starting pitchers. So you're looking at probably 5-7 years and $20-$30 million annually? And most of those big free agent starter deals don't work out in the end. Then you probably want a more experienced closer, so probably looking at 3-4 years and $15-20 million. Again, I'm of the school that signing relievers to big, multi year contracts will ultimately not work out for you. And then how many big bats do you need? Let's say just one, which will run you 7+ years and $30 million annually.

Does that get us there? Maybe. But it's also a lot of money that you're going to have to pay, even if you defer a lot of money. You'll end up in a worse rebuilding situation than you are now before too long.

And you'll probably say, who cares, we need an owner who is going to spend more. But that's just not going to happen with this owner. No matter how much people want it, it's a mid market team and they're just not going to have that kind of budget. You might as well find a different team because you'll never be happy.

Now I don't know whether or not this draft and development rebuild that they're saying they're doing is truly a way to get back to what they used to do while maintaining that top third payroll, or just an excuse to reduce payroll now AND in the future. But I'm going to say that, historically, this owner has had his greatest success drafting and developing with a top payroll, so I'm inclined to believe that's the actual goal. And I believe that type of system is best for a mid market organization. They're just never going to be able to be huge spenders in free agency.

[Hoosier59]

Thank you Cardinalsfan4life! These are my feelings exactly. There is absolutely no reason to trade Brendon Donovan, other than DeWitt is extremely cheap, and not really trying to win. He can absolutely afford whatever it is the Cardinals need without getting rid of the valuable assets that they have. Some people on here have swallowed the whole [nonsense] of a rebuild, and can’t see it’s just DeWitt being cheap. There is no need for any dang rebuild! The Cardinals currently have some quality prospects in their system that are just a few seasons away. Supplemental the current roster with a few veterans, trade away redundant players and actually try and win! NOW!

[Ronnie Dobbs]

If not KC , looking at the Guardians prospects both Khal Stephen RHP AA age 22 and 6-4 215 is 6th ranked in their system
and Braylon Doughty is a 19 yr. old RHP who is 6-1 196 expected MLB arrival in 2028 season 8th ranked Interesting youngster .

I'd like someone a little closer to the majors, or someone with higher potential if they are that young, than something like that for Donovan. Or maybe if pitchers like you mentioned are paired with another player. I think Donovan will have a pretty good market.

[rockondlouie]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

+1

If Bloom can find a young star player available (Re: F. Tatis, Jr), then no reason the Cardinals can't bring him in now and build around him other than BDWJr is going cheap (a plan he started mis season 2024) as we head into the CBA negotiations.

[Cardinals4Life]

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

I'll just say I don't think what you're proposing is a good idea. Not with a $180 million budget.

If you want them to be a "true contender," then you're looking at, what, to start out? I'd say two starting pitchers. So you're looking at probably 5-7 years and $20-$30 million annually? And most of those big free agent starter deals don't work out in the end. Then you probably want a more experienced closer, so probably looking at 3-4 years and $15-20 million. Again, I'm of the school that signing relievers to big, multi year contracts will ultimately not work out for you. And then how many big bats do you need? Let's say just one, which will run you 7+ years and $30 million annually.

Does that get us there? Maybe. But it's also a lot of money that you're going to have to pay, even if you defer a lot of money. You'll end up in a worse rebuilding situation than you are now before too long.

And you'll probably say, who cares, we need an owner who is going to spend more. But that's just not going to happen with this owner. No matter how much people want it, it's a mid market team and they're just not going to have that kind of budget. You might as well find a different team because you'll never be happy.

Now I don't know whether or not this draft and development rebuild that they're saying they're doing is truly a way to get back to what they used to do while maintaining that top third payroll, or just an excuse to reduce payroll now AND in the future. But I'm going to say that, historically, this owner has had his greatest success drafting and developing with a top payroll, so I'm inclined to believe that's the actual goal. And I believe that type of system is best for a mid market organization. They're just never going to be able to be huge spenders in free agency.

RD,

Thanks for the response.
So this is just a hypothetical, but what would the following put our payroll at? Can you put some #s to this for me?

Sign F. Valdez
Sign Eugenio Suarez
Trade for a #3 pitcher (younger and cost-controlled)

Rotation: Valdez, Gray, traded #3, Liberatore, McGreevy

C.- Herrera, Crooks
1B - Contreras
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn
3B - Suarez
LF - Donovan or Burleson
*one probably has to be traded in a package for a P
CF - Scott II
RF - ??
*Let's get crazy and say we trade for Tatis
DH - Gorman

Would this team not be a playoff team? Sure it would.

[Cardinals4Life]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

+1

If Bloom can find a young star player available (Re: F. Tatis, Jr), then no reason the Cardinals can't bring him in now and build around him other than BDWJr is going cheap (a plan he started mis season 2024) as we head into the CBA negotiations.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Tatis. He's young enough, plays OF, has star power.

[Cardinals4Life]

Thank you Cardinalsfan4life! These are my feelings exactly. There is absolutely no reason to trade Brendon Donovan, other than DeWitt is extremely cheap, and not really trying to win. He can absolutely afford whatever it is the Cardinals need without getting rid of the valuable assets that they have. Some people on here have swallowed the whole [nonsense] of a rebuild, and can’t see it’s just DeWitt being cheap. There is no need for any dang rebuild! The Cardinals currently have some quality prospects in their system that are just a few seasons away. Supplemental the current roster with a few veterans, trade away redundant players and actually try and win! NOW!

Yeah, I mean you can tear it down and start over, but we have a lot of young, nice pieces. They may not ne the star pieces, but we definitely have a lot of complimentary pieces. But guess what?? We have a TON of money to spend and acquire those star players to go with our young, cost-controlled guys! Why do we have to wait?? Makes no sense other than trying to save money. And you are right, many have swallowed the whole charade, hook, line, and sinker, of having to rebuild as the only way to be competitive. What a load of c r a p!

[mattmitchl44]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

Because if you have a young cost controlled front of rotation SP you can use your money to add a second front of rotation SP and THEN you have the makings of a rotation that might be able to complete with the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. But you can't afford to buy two at $30 million each, and just one doesn't make you competitive.

Same with the lineup.

[Cardinals4Life]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

Because if you have a young cost controlled front of rotation SP you can use your money to add a second front of rotation SP and THEN you have the makings of a rotation that might be able to complete with the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. But you can't afford to buy two at $30 million each, and just one doesn't make you competitive.

Same with the lineup.

Well we already have Sonny Gray as a solid #2.
Adding an ace via FA makes perfect sense.

FA, Gray, Trade Acquisition, Liberatore, McGreevy.
Why is this unreasonable??

[mattmitchl44]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

Because if you have a young cost controlled front of rotation SP you can use your money to add a second front of rotation SP and THEN you have the makings of a rotation that might be able to complete with the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. But you can't afford to buy two at $30 million each, and just one doesn't make you competitive.

Same with the lineup.

Well we already have Sonny Gray as a solid #2.
Adding an ace via FA makes perfect sense.

FA, Gray, Trade Acquisition, Liberatore, McGreevy.
Why is this unreasonable??

Because then there isn't enough payroll to fix the lineup.

And we don't even know if Gray is a #2 anymore at age 36 next year.

[ramfandan]

If not KC , looking at the Guardians prospects both Khal Stephen RHP AA age 22 and 6-4 215 is 6th ranked in their system
and Braylon Doughty is a 19 yr. old RHP who is 6-1 196 expected MLB arrival in 2028 season 8th ranked Interesting youngster .

I'd like someone a little closer to the majors, or someone with higher potential if they are that young, than something like that for Donovan. Or maybe if pitchers like you mentioned are paired with another player. I think Donovan will have a pretty good market.

Thanks for the comment, Ronnie ! That was NOT my trade proposal but YES wanted to point out two younger pitchers to be part of a bigger trade.
I would hope Donovan could attract 3 players in return or Donovan plus one lower prospect for a major leager (with control ) and some young pitchers as I proposed. Think we both are on the same page.

[ClassicO]

I'm a huge critic of the DeWitt's lack of spending -- on any top-tier free agents, on player development and mostly on international free agents. The ownership has more than enough money to spend and still be profitable in the big picture (increased team value and true operating revenue).

But...

This team has no superstars in the lineup or in the minors (maybe JJ and Doyle but that's premature).
This team will take 2-3 years before it is ready to prove that adding major FA talent will get them to a ring. They need to wait until they have shown that they can vastly improve player development and IFAs.

Why sign highly priced FAs who are always a gamble until you have a strong supporting cast? To win the Wild Card and get bounced?

[rockondlouie]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

+1

If Bloom can find a young star player available (Re: F. Tatis, Jr), then no reason the Cardinals can't bring him in now and build around him other than BDWJr is going cheap (a plan he started mis season 2024) as we head into the CBA negotiations.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Tatis. He's young enough, plays OF, has star power.

Ditto

He's a stud in RF..........exciting on the base paths........and has power (even w/o the steroids).

He and JJW would be fun to watch at the top of the order for the next ten years!

[renostl]

...dungeon of mediocrity.....

Weirdly, a lot of CT demands they spend enough money right now to stay in their dungeon of mediocrity.

Cards could spend around 180M next season and be a true contender. Easily. They are choosing not to.

Not when the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. exist as they currently do in the NL. The Cardinals need a lot more young, cost controlled talent before spending even $180 million can get them remotely close to those teams right now.

Until they get, at least, a young cost controlled, 4+ fWAR, front-of-rotation SP (maybe Doyle) and a young cost controlled 4+ fWAR position player (maybe Wetherholt) to the majors and realizing their potential, even spending $180 million right now only gets them back in the "dungeon of mediocrity" of winning 8X games and hoping for the best if they make the playoffs.

Completely disagree. Why does the front of the rotation starter have to be cost controlled? Why does the star position player have to be cost controlled?
Our entire team right now is pretty much cost-controlled. They can afford to bring in some star players. Pair them with the cost controlled guys we currently have. Everybody can't be cost-controlled all the time.

This is Major League Baseball. The fact that people buy in to this "we can't compete" every year nonsense is just a product of our society as a whole. Teams should try and compete EVERY year. That's why MLB franchises exist. That's why we have professional sports. It's for the fans. It's entertainment. Nothing entertaining about trying to watch an owner pinch his pennies and search for cost-controlled everything. Ridiculous!

Because if you have a young cost controlled front of rotation SP you can use your money to add a second front of rotation SP and THEN you have the makings of a rotation that might be able to complete with the Dodgers, Phillies, etc. But you can't afford to buy two at $30 million each, and just one doesn't make you competitive.

Same with the lineup.

Well we already have Sonny Gray as a solid #2.
Adding an ace via FA makes perfect sense.

FA, Gray, Trade Acquisition, Liberatore, McGreevy.
Why is this unreasonable??

It's not.

Ideally the Cards can lock into players that maintain productivity.
That's where it gets to be more difficult. A lot of teams get built have a run
at it then age out. Teams with unlimited funding are the ones that repeat.
Without the funding they fall due to aging out, injury, prospects failing, or
all prospects reaching bigger paydays at the same time. They still need
missing pieces, a Kiki or Edman and they still struggle to win it, it's baseball.

It seems to be an incredibly difficult needle to thread. Teams are out there like
Atl, AZ, SF, TX, Bos, Hou that mix buying and developing but with very mixed results.
Houston won but needed rentals to get over the hump, money to maintain it,
then the next wave when they aged together.

Fans want Milwaukee or TB on steroids. Thet still need to be ruthless when
their fan favorites age.

You understand all that. We agree on a lot.