An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.
Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.
Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.
I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.
And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.
Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.
Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.
I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.
And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.
Gormans already played himself out of it at
This point you’re giving him unearned playing time just to watch him suck again and prove yet again he sucks he’s getting a runway career instead of a runway season
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
There’s obviously not a magic number.
JD Martinez didn’t hit till he was 26
Max Muncy didn’t hit until he was 27
Jose Bautista didn’t hit until he was 29
And those 3 collectively have like 880 HR between them.
I’m just saying that:
1 - we know the Cardinals player development engine has been FUBAR
2 - we have two highly drafted power bats who they advanced quickly that have struggled
3 - in baseball terms, they could both have longevity in front of them
Giving up on them now would serve no objective.
Jo Adell is an example of a kid rushed to the big leagues skipping developmental steps and nearly left for dead. He just popped 37 HR in his age 26 season.
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.
Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.
Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.
I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.
And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.
The Infinity Loop thinking that we’ll just keeping starting poor players because we won’t be competing next season is self fulfilling prophecy.
Gorman sucks at 3b and can’t consistently hit
Stick Walker at AAA and tell him to dominate for couple seasons.
But don’t keep these guys on ML club to suck…..OBVIOUSLY they can’t work it out playing everyday on a ML team.
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.
Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.
Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.
I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.
And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.
The Infinity Loop thinking that we’ll just keeping starting poor players because we won’t be competing next season is self fulfilling prophecy.
Gorman sucks at 3b and can’t consistently hit
Stick Walker at AAA and tell him to dominate for couple seasons.
But don’t keep these guys on ML club to suck…..OBVIOUSLY they can’t work it out playing everyday on a ML team.
Yea it’s a page directly from mos playbook keep running the same players out year after year that suck and being dumb enough to expect different results is mo level stupidity then next season after Gorman sucks again they will say hey he’s just 26 then he will suck hey he’s just 27 there were players that broke out when they were 30 lol
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
I get it. I am as frustrated at their failure to blossom as anyone here. The thing is what to do about it NOW. No looking into the past coulda woulda. Some want to kick them to the curb. Why? Who are they blocking? No one.
Others want to trade them for a bag of balls which is about their trade value now. Why? Again they are both cheap, and blocking no one.
Lastly -STL is not poised to be a contender in 2026 so there is no harm in letting them get another extended look. If either of them takes a step forward it is a win.
I make no predictions nor expectations. Just that there is no point losing ones mind over this. People need to accept this is the hand dealt right now and the smart path is to pencil them in a starters in spring and let them continue to earn it or play themselves out of it.
And if JJ and Saggese both outplay them then they should get the playing time. No guarantee if they start slow. This is a new era and time to put up or sit down.
Very much agree!
They figure to be around a .500 team in 2026.
And you are correct that neither is currently blocked.
But that could certainly change in 2026.
Walker at least has an option. Don’t think Gorman does?
Assuming Arenado is dealt Gorman gets his final shot in 2026.
Donovan can move to LF if not dealt.
Walker can at worst platoon since all the other OF’s are LH.
The OF is a jumble. I have my fingers crossed on Josh Baez late arriving next year.
Go Cards!
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
There’s obviously not a magic number.
JD Martinez didn’t hit till he was 26
Max Muncy didn’t hit until he was 27
Jose Bautista didn’t hit until he was 29
And those 3 collectively have like 880 HR between them.
I’m just saying that:
1 - we know the Cardinals player development engine has been FUBAR
2 - we have two highly drafted power bats who they advanced quickly that have struggled
3 - in baseball terms, they could both have longevity in front of them
Giving up on them now would serve no objective.
Jo Adell is an example of a kid rushed to the big leagues skipping developmental steps and nearly left for dead. He just popped 37 HR in his age 26 season.
It might make sense to move on from them if the Cards had blue chip prospects waiting to take their place… but they don’t. So there’s reason to see if any value can be extracted from them, but I don’t have much optimism.
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
There’s obviously not a magic number.
JD Martinez didn’t hit till he was 26
Max Muncy didn’t hit until he was 27
Jose Bautista didn’t hit until he was 29
And those 3 collectively have like 880 HR between them.
I’m just saying that:
1 - we know the Cardinals player development engine has been FUBAR
2 - we have two highly drafted power bats who they advanced quickly that have struggled
3 - in baseball terms, they could both have longevity in front of them
Giving up on them now would serve no objective.
Jo Adell is an example of a kid rushed to the big leagues skipping developmental steps and nearly left for dead. He just popped 37 HR in his age 26 season.
It might make sense to move on from them if the Cards had blue chip prospects waiting to take their place… but they don’t. So there’s reason to see if any value can be extracted from them, but I don’t have much optimism.
Exactly.
I have more optimism on Gorman in general than Walker. I was happy to see Walker at Driveline, though.
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
There’s obviously not a magic number.
JD Martinez didn’t hit till he was 26
Max Muncy didn’t hit until he was 27
Jose Bautista didn’t hit until he was 29
And those 3 collectively have like 880 HR between them.
I’m just saying that:
1 - we know the Cardinals player development engine has been FUBAR
2 - we have two highly drafted power bats who they advanced quickly that have struggled
3 - in baseball terms, they could both have longevity in front of them
Giving up on them now would serve no objective.
Jo Adell is an example of a kid rushed to the big leagues skipping developmental steps and nearly left for dead. He just popped 37 HR in his age 26 season.
It might make sense to move on from them if the Cards had blue chip prospects waiting to take their place… but they don’t. So there’s reason to see if any value can be extracted from them, but I don’t have much optimism.
That’s definitely the tried and failed mo philosophy of waiting until they have zero value and wasting season after season watching them fail. I guess bloom will be mo the sequel
Pretty simple. A team does NOT keep giving Gorman yearly chances because player success is based upon performance. Performance at a level which contributes to team success. To show players that player performance is the criteria for playing MLB in STL you remove Gorman and others from the equation due to lack of successful performance. Not just lack of hitting but also defense, base running, athletic skills, etc are not MLB quality. The eye test does not lie.
IF Gorman worked for Apple, Microsoft, Berkshire, Eli Lilly, NVIDIA, Tesla, etc and produced like performance levels. Do you really think he would be employed?? SO then why is his failure allowed in STL?
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
There’s obviously not a magic number.
JD Martinez didn’t hit till he was 26
Max Muncy didn’t hit until he was 27
Jose Bautista didn’t hit until he was 29
And those 3 collectively have like 880 HR between them.
I’m just saying that:
1 - we know the Cardinals player development engine has been FUBAR
2 - we have two highly drafted power bats who they advanced quickly that have struggled
3 - in baseball terms, they could both have longevity in front of them
Giving up on them now would serve no objective.
Jo Adell is an example of a kid rushed to the big leagues skipping developmental steps and nearly left for dead. He just popped 37 HR in his age 26 season.
It might make sense to move on from them if the Cards had blue chip prospects waiting to take their place… but they don’t. So there’s reason to see if any value can be extracted from them, but I don’t have much optimism.
That’s definitely the tried and failed mo philosophy of waiting until they have zero value and wasting season after season watching them fail. I guess bloom will be mo the sequel
An Old Friend wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 09:59 am
You guys are arguing as if the Cardinals aren’t completely revamping their player development strategy. Considering you can’t even acknowledge that, there’s nothing to discuss here.
Gorman has over 1500 PAs & Walker over 1000.
At what point are they beyond the ‘development’ stage?
There’s obviously not a magic number.
JD Martinez didn’t hit till he was 26
Max Muncy didn’t hit until he was 27
Jose Bautista didn’t hit until he was 29
And those 3 collectively have like 880 HR between them.
I’m just saying that:
1 - we know the Cardinals player development engine has been FUBAR
2 - we have two highly drafted power bats who they advanced quickly that have struggled
3 - in baseball terms, they could both have longevity in front of them
Giving up on them now would serve no objective.
Jo Adell is an example of a kid rushed to the big leagues skipping developmental steps and nearly left for dead. He just popped 37 HR in his age 26 season.
It might make sense to move on from them if the Cards had blue chip prospects waiting to take their place… but they don’t. So there’s reason to see if any value can be extracted from them, but I don’t have much optimism.
That’s definitely the tried and failed mo philosophy of waiting until they have zero value and wasting season after season watching them fail. I guess bloom will be mo the sequel
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑27 Oct 2025 11:58 am
We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.
I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.
What kind of rebuild gives up on a 23 year old that was a top prospect a year ago, or a gold glove caliber center fielder with plus speed on the base paths after one season, or even a 25 year old who has already had a full mlb season with 27 homers and an .800 ops over 400 at bats?
I feel very impatient at times and I certainly think big mistakes in the past. But, with the CBA coming after 2026, there really isn’t a good reason not to give all the guys on your list another season to figure it out. What they need to do is add pitching and be ready to add what is needed offensively once the new CBA is in place
There are several around here that can’t or won’t accept where the Cards are today. Or what their long range plan is. “Sign or trade somebody!” Even though the World Series isn’t yet over, and none of those roster moves can be made yet.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑27 Oct 2025 11:58 am
We're going to see if:
JJ Wetherholt is what we think he is
Victor Scott II can become anything but an offensive liability
Nolan Gorman can play 3B and put the bat on the ball
Jordan Walker can be anything except the biggest mess in the National League
Kyle Leahy can handle a starters load
Ivan Herrera can be a major league catcher.
I know we're rebuilding and I think that is the right thing to do. I don't mind that they ask these questions. The problem comes when they ignore or deny the answers to the questions asked. Some of these questions have been asked and answered.
What kind of rebuild gives up on a 23 year old that was a top prospect a year ago, or a gold glove caliber center fielder with plus speed on the base paths after one season, or even a 25 year old who has already had a full mlb season with 27 homers and an .800 ops over 400 at bats?
I feel very impatient at times and I certainly think big mistakes in the past. But, with the CBA coming after 2026, there really isn’t a good reason not to give all the guys on your list another season to figure it out. What they need to do is add pitching and be ready to add what is needed offensively once the new CBA is in place
There are several around here that can’t or won’t accept where the Cards are today. Or what their long range plan is. “Sign or trade somebody!” Even though the World Series isn’t yet over, and none of those roster moves can be made yet.
Yup. In a nutshell. Reality hasn't crept in to what it will take to field a top quality product. The team can not afford to buy its way out of this mess. it will take some pain and time. I'm hoping we are already at the halfway point and start to see a quality team by 2027.
ilcubuffs wrote: ↑28 Oct 2025 17:47 pm
Pretty simple. A team does NOT keep giving Gorman yearly chances because player success is based upon performance. Performance at a level which contributes to team success. To show players that player performance is the criteria for playing MLB in STL you remove Gorman and others from the equation due to lack of successful performance. Not just lack of hitting but also defense, base running, athletic skills, etc are not MLB quality. The eye test does not lie.
IF Gorman worked for Apple, Microsoft, Berkshire, Eli Lilly, NVIDIA, Tesla, etc and produced like performance levels. Do you really think he would be employed?? SO then why is his failure allowed in STL?
+1 Gorman is a one tool player who can’t hit well enough to bring the one tool into play
