Rooney on the Radio said he expects a lot of movement

[dugoutrex]

High Em is talking 'extension' for Oli

[riff raff]

High Em is talking 'extension' for Oli

Ha! Nice try but you never know.
Bloom has had 2 years to observe Oli and has according to reports met with him numerous times during the season.

[rockondlouie]

Only foolish dreamers can't comprehend the fact that Dewitt has ALWAYS tied Payroll to Attendance.

And the owners have never operated the way they are apparently planning to for this rebuild. So they're already breaking with what they have "always" done.

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

Not hardly matt, you're being silly if you think otherwise when it comes to BDWJr and how he sets the payroll.

But keep dreaming on that he'll give C. Bloom a Top 10 payroll, which would be over $210+M, after the re-build is completed in three-four years.

and

Complete tear down & rebuilds by the Astros, Braves ect...you always cite are no guarantee of future returns for the Cardinals.

It's not - but continuing their course of the last multiple seasons of striving to be a better version of mediocre isn't a path to future returns either.

Agreed

No one wanted them to continue on Mo's failed course which is why BDWJr brought in C. Bloom.

But if you listened to Bloom he told you he believes exactly what I've been telling you now for over a year, that he can walk (re-stock the farm system) & chew gum (compete) at the same time.

Walk:
“Our top priority will be to build our talent base for the long-term,” Bloom said.

Chew Gum:
"We will always want to win,” Bloom said. “We will hunt moves and decisions that allow us to do that right now, too. As long as they also serve our ultimate goal."

With Bloom in charge and I think we BOTH are going to get what we want.

[Ozziesfan41]

Only foolish dreamers can't comprehend the fact that Dewitt has ALWAYS tied Payroll to Attendance.

And the owners have never operated the way they are apparently planning to for this rebuild. So they're already breaking with what they have "always" done.

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

Not hardly matt, you're being silly if you think otherwise when it comes to BDWJr and how he sets the payroll.

But keep dreaming on that he'll give C. Bloom a Top 10 payroll, which would be over $210+M, after the re-build is completed in three-four years.

and

Complete tear down & rebuilds by the Astros, Braves ect...you always cite are no guarantee of future returns for the Cardinals.

It's not - but continuing their course of the last multiple seasons of striving to be a better version of mediocre isn't a path to future returns either.

+1 the not rebuild but just sign guys like Gibson and Lynn and Leake and pray for miracles are over finally over

[CCard]

during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.

Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.

And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.

I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.

What tends to happen is people find other things the like to do. It will be interest to see but I doubt the Cardinals will return to the Matheny era when the Cardinals were drawing 42,000 a game.

Well, if they do a huge makeover ala Whitey Herzog style and they start fielding and exciting and competitive team then attendance would bounce back quickly depending of course on how badly someone destroys the economy, but the longer the losing and boring talent percolates here the worse it'll be on the returning attendance.

Whitey knew in that pitcher friendly ballpark what the needed to win and as both General manager and field manager he was in a unique position to get it. I don't think have enough trade chips to be able to acquire good players or people in charge who understand baseball the way Herzog did. These are analytics people. They are looking at spin rate and swing angle. Perhaps Bloom is that guy but I doubt it.

Even though he coached in the American League, he was always a National League type manager. He believe that speed never slumps, and that a single was as good as a double with speed. He believed in a strong defense and that you didn't need to hit homers to win games even though it helped at times. Even if you lost a game, you gave an exciting show with lots of action. Whitey ball you all was the war cry of the Cardinals. Those were special times and today with the limiting throws to first and the bigger bags, I can't even imagine how many bases they would have stolen.

True. In 1982 the Cardinals were 17th in OPS. If you ran that season through an analytics computer it would tell you the 1982 Cardinals had no chance. No better example of the flaws with today's analytics.

It's true Herzog managed previously in the American but when he played and learned the game from managers like Casey Stengel there was no DH.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... 1982.shtml

He also knew that a single was as good as a double with speed on the bases. Those stolen bases don't really show up in the power rankings I don't think. The Cards in 1982 never lost more than 3 games in a row.

[ScotchMIrish]

during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.

Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.

And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.

I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.

What tends to happen is people find other things the like to do. It will be interest to see but I doubt the Cardinals will return to the Matheny era when the Cardinals were drawing 42,000 a game.

Well, if they do a huge makeover ala Whitey Herzog style and they start fielding and exciting and competitive team then attendance would bounce back quickly depending of course on how badly someone destroys the economy, but the longer the losing and boring talent percolates here the worse it'll be on the returning attendance.

Whitey knew in that pitcher friendly ballpark what the needed to win and as both General manager and field manager he was in a unique position to get it. I don't think have enough trade chips to be able to acquire good players or people in charge who understand baseball the way Herzog did. These are analytics people. They are looking at spin rate and swing angle. Perhaps Bloom is that guy but I doubt it.

Even though he coached in the American League, he was always a National League type manager. He believe that speed never slumps, and that a single was as good as a double with speed. He believed in a strong defense and that you didn't need to hit homers to win games even though it helped at times. Even if you lost a game, you gave an exciting show with lots of action. Whitey ball you all was the war cry of the Cardinals. Those were special times and today with the limiting throws to first and the bigger bags, I can't even imagine how many bases they would have stolen.

True. In 1982 the Cardinals were 17th in OPS. If you ran that season through an analytics computer it would tell you the 1982 Cardinals had no chance. No better example of the flaws with today's analytics.

It's true Herzog managed previously in the American but when he played and learned the game from managers like Casey Stengel there was no DH.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... 1982.shtml

He also knew that a single was as good as a double with speed on the bases. Those stolen bases don't really show up in the power rankings I don't think. The Cards in 1982 never lost more than 3 games in a row.

You're right. Curt Flood had a high batting average for the higher mound era and part of that was Brock on first base. Flood saw a lot of fastballs. Same with Torre the year he led the league in hitting.

[Carp4Cy]

Only foolish dreamers can't comprehend the fact that Dewitt has ALWAYS tied Payroll to Attendance.

And the owners have never operated the way they are apparently planning to for this rebuild. So they're already breaking with what they have "always" done.

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

Not hardly matt, you're being silly if you think otherwise when it comes to BDWJr and how he sets the payroll.

But keep dreaming on that he'll give C. Bloom a Top 10 payroll, which would be over $210+M, after the re-build is completed in three-four years.

and

Complete tear down & rebuilds by the Astros, Braves ect...you always cite are no guarantee of future returns for the Cardinals.

It's not - but continuing their course of the last multiple seasons of striving to be a better version of mediocre isn't a path to future returns either.

Agreed

No one wanted them to continue on Mo's failed course which is why BDWJr brought in C. Bloom.

But if you listened to Bloom he told you he believes exactly what I've been telling you now for over a year, that he can walk (re-stock the farm system) & chew gum (compete) at the same time.

Walk:
“Our top priority will be to build our talent base for the long-term,” Bloom said.

Chew Gum:
"We will always want to win,” Bloom said. “We will hunt moves and decisions that allow us to do that right now, too. As long as they also serve our ultimate goal."

With Bloom in charge and I think we BOTH are going to get what we want.

Exactly.

When faced with a wrong choice A and a painful/risky choice B, always pick option C.

[CCard]

during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.

Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.

And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.

I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.

What tends to happen is people find other things the like to do. It will be interest to see but I doubt the Cardinals will return to the Matheny era when the Cardinals were drawing 42,000 a game.

Well, if they do a huge makeover ala Whitey Herzog style and they start fielding and exciting and competitive team then attendance would bounce back quickly depending of course on how badly someone destroys the economy, but the longer the losing and boring talent percolates here the worse it'll be on the returning attendance.

Whitey knew in that pitcher friendly ballpark what the needed to win and as both General manager and field manager he was in a unique position to get it. I don't think have enough trade chips to be able to acquire good players or people in charge who understand baseball the way Herzog did. These are analytics people. They are looking at spin rate and swing angle. Perhaps Bloom is that guy but I doubt it.

Even though he coached in the American League, he was always a National League type manager. He believe that speed never slumps, and that a single was as good as a double with speed. He believed in a strong defense and that you didn't need to hit homers to win games even though it helped at times. Even if you lost a game, you gave an exciting show with lots of action. Whitey ball you all was the war cry of the Cardinals. Those were special times and today with the limiting throws to first and the bigger bags, I can't even imagine how many bases they would have stolen.

True. In 1982 the Cardinals were 17th in OPS. If you ran that season through an analytics computer it would tell you the 1982 Cardinals had no chance. No better example of the flaws with today's analytics.

It's true Herzog managed previously in the American but when he played and learned the game from managers like Casey Stengel there was no DH.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... 1982.shtml

He also knew that a single was as good as a double with speed on the bases. Those stolen bases don't really show up in the power rankings I don't think. The Cards in 1982 never lost more than 3 games in a row.

You're right. Curt Flood had a high batting average for the higher mound era and part of that was Brock on first base. Flood saw a lot of fastballs. Same with Torre the year he led the league in hitting.

Yep, that 's yet another aspect of the speed game. Hitters see more fastballs with runners on that can steal. Just so many positives.

[ScotchMIrish]

during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.

Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.

And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.

I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.

What tends to happen is people find other things the like to do. It will be interest to see but I doubt the Cardinals will return to the Matheny era when the Cardinals were drawing 42,000 a game.

Well, if they do a huge makeover ala Whitey Herzog style and they start fielding and exciting and competitive team then attendance would bounce back quickly depending of course on how badly someone destroys the economy, but the longer the losing and boring talent percolates here the worse it'll be on the returning attendance.

Whitey knew in that pitcher friendly ballpark what the needed to win and as both General manager and field manager he was in a unique position to get it. I don't think have enough trade chips to be able to acquire good players or people in charge who understand baseball the way Herzog did. These are analytics people. They are looking at spin rate and swing angle. Perhaps Bloom is that guy but I doubt it.

Even though he coached in the American League, he was always a National League type manager. He believe that speed never slumps, and that a single was as good as a double with speed. He believed in a strong defense and that you didn't need to hit homers to win games even though it helped at times. Even if you lost a game, you gave an exciting show with lots of action. Whitey ball you all was the war cry of the Cardinals. Those were special times and today with the limiting throws to first and the bigger bags, I can't even imagine how many bases they would have stolen.

True. In 1982 the Cardinals were 17th in OPS. If you ran that season through an analytics computer it would tell you the 1982 Cardinals had no chance. No better example of the flaws with today's analytics.

It's true Herzog managed previously in the American but when he played and learned the game from managers like Casey Stengel there was no DH.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... 1982.shtml

He also knew that a single was as good as a double with speed on the bases. Those stolen bases don't really show up in the power rankings I don't think. The Cards in 1982 never lost more than 3 games in a row.

You're right. Curt Flood had a high batting average for the higher mound era and part of that was Brock on first base. Flood saw a lot of fastballs. Same with Torre the year he led the league in hitting.

Yep, that 's yet another aspect of the speed game. Hitters see more fastballs with runners on that can steal. Just so many positives.

During a game a year or two ago Herzog was in the booth and he talked about how the 1982 team always sent the runner on a 3-2 count. They had speed and contact hitters. Run, get the infield moving, make contact. Cardinals had the 17th highest OPS that season. No analytics computer would have that team winning the world series. Speed, contact, good pitching and good manager. Few managers then or now could have won the world series with that team because most don't understand the game like Herzog.