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Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:24 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:00 pm

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

2018
1. JMart was given 1b before the season started.
2. Carp was moved to 3B
3. Gyorko was relatively healthly other than a 15 day DL stint in April.
4. DeJong got injured, but Garcia did a decent job at SS.


You want an example of MM coaching, here it is: JMart was a defensive liability at 1b, no doubt. Did you know JMart had like 40 COMPLETE GAMES at 1b through the first 6 weeks of the 2018 season? Meaning MM never def-replaced him.

And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:24 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:00 pm

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

2018
1. JMart was given 1b before the season started.
2. Carp was moved to 3B
3. Gyorko was relatively healthly other than a 15 day DL stint in April.
4. DeJong got injured, but Garcia did a decent job at SS.


You want an example of MM coaching, here it is: JMart was a defensive liability at 1b, no doubt. Did you know JMart had like 40 COMPLETE GAMES at 1b through the first 6 weeks of the 2018 season? Meaning MM never def-replaced him.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:50 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm
And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:55 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:50 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm
And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:57 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:55 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:50 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm
And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

Tommy Pham had an .813 ops going into Sept and was a much better fielder than Moss.

So, just talking defense, how come Moss had like 26 complete games in Sept?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:57 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:55 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:50 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm
And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

Tommy Pham had an .813 ops going into Sept and was a much better fielder than Moss.

So, just talking defense, how come Moss had like 26 complete games in Sept?

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:57 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:55 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:50 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm
And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

Tommy Pham had an .813 ops going into Sept and was a much better fielder than Moss.

So, just talking defense, how come Moss had like 26 complete games in Sept?

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:52 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:24 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:00 pm

I think I covered that in my original post

"To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez "

The idea that Shildt was the reason the fundamentals improved is not accurate.

Here is what happened in 2018:

Paul DeJong (a good glove at SS) broke his wrist and missed the last 8 weeks of Matheny's tenure. He returned from DL the exact same day Matheny got fired. Until he came back, we were forced to go with Greg Garcia and Yairo Munoz at SS, because we didn't have an actual player that could play the position on the roster when DeJong was hurt. Those two were miserable filling in.

Also, Gyorko was hurt. And while, Jedd wasn't exactly Mr. Gold Glove, his injury forced us to move Carpenter back to third base, putting Jose Martinez at first base. Jose could barely catch the ball, and couldn't save any fielders' throws like even an average first baseman can.

Gyorko returned from injury the week after Matheny was fired.

In the outfield, we had three below average fielders Mo put out there. Ozuna was brought in to play LF. That moved Pham to Centerfield, where has was exposed. Fowler, who was never a good fielder, was in RF while hitting .180.

Within the two weeks of the Matheny firing, Pham got traded and Fowler got hurt. Bader and Tyler O'Neil got added to the roster and started getting playing time.

Literally, almost the entire defensive lineup was replaced. New SS, new 3B, new 1B, new CF, new RF.
That is why the team improved in fundamentals. It had nothing to do with Shildt.

Then in 2019, we add a gold glover in Goldschmidt and Edman, while Bader became a first year starter. Of course the team was one of the best defensive teams in the game.

They literally went from horrendous defensive personnel to great defensive personnel almost overnight.

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

If Matheny was so bad fundamentally, then why was the team one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the entire game for his first 4 years?

It wasn't until 2016, when the personnel on the field changed, that the team collapsed defensively. That's 100 percent on Mo.

2016, 2017 and the first half in 2018 is 100% because of the players Mo chose. And it wasn't until the entire defensive lineup was changed mid way through 2018 that it turned around.

2018
1. JMart was given 1b before the season started.
2. Carp was moved to 3B
3. Gyorko was relatively healthly other than a 15 day DL stint in April.
4. DeJong got injured, but Garcia did a decent job at SS.


You want an example of MM coaching, here it is: JMart was a defensive liability at 1b, no doubt. Did you know JMart had like 40 COMPLETE GAMES at 1b through the first 6 weeks of the 2018 season? Meaning MM never def-replaced him.

1. J-Mart is a perfect example of Mo's flawed rosters. He slashed .309 / .379 / .518 / .897 and was 34% better than league average in 2017. The organization clearly wanted his bat in the lineup as much as possible, but they have to accept that it comes with horrendous defense. That isn't Matheny's fault. That's one of Mo's key roster spots being taken up by a guy that is "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

2. Garcia did not fill in adequately for DeJong. He had 2 extra base hits and slugged .309 forcing us to choose between Yairo who could hit but couldn't field. Or Garcia who was okay at fielding but couldn't hit and was 30% below league average. Two more "damned if you do, damned if you don't" players we were forced to use extensively for 8 weeks.

3. I noticed you skipped right over these inconvenient facts:

in 2013, the Cardinals didn't have very good speed or range in the field, but they caught everything that was hit to them and finished 1st in the National League with fewest errors. If Matheny was so bad, how did that happen? It was because they had reliable players.

In 2014, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked first in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) in all of Major League Baseball, according to MLB.com

In 2015, the St. Louis Cardinals ranked 7th in Defensive Runs Saved (DRS)

It's pretty 100 percent indisputable, the team was fundamentally sound when they had fundamentally sound players. And they weren't fundamentally sound when Mo filled the roster with flawed stumblebums.

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 15:03 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:57 pm

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:55 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:50 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:41 pm
And who can forget 2016 he started Tommy Pham 1 game in September while playing moss everyday to go .099 9-91. Even if Pham wasn’t hitting well he was hitting better than moss and played much better defense. The cardinals missed the playoffs by 1 game because MM preferred the poor defensive non hitting moss over Pham who speed power and defense could have helped the team in that stretch

That was my 'back up' stat. LOL.

So odd the way Matheny played Pham. But back to your example, yeah, he not only started Moss in LF, but Moss had so many COMPLETE GAMES that month. From memory, Pham had one start in Sept———but was pulled in the 4th! Had 19 PAs from 9/2 to 10/2.

Also, last series of the year in 2016 vs. Pit:
Moss: 3 starts.
Pham: 0 starts, but appeared in all three games. No PAs...

Tommy Pham had a -0.3 WAR in 2016 and was literally going blind dealing with eye issues.

Pathetic if this is truly an example of you guys thinking this is proof Matheny was a bad manager.

This is literally proof you have nothing to back up your arguments.

Tommy Pham had an .813 ops going into Sept and was a much better fielder than Moss.

So, just talking defense, how come Moss had like 26 complete games in Sept?

So Pham slashed .167 / .211 / .167 / .377 and your complaint is what?

BTW, Moss had an .895 OPS going into September. What is better .895 or .813?

Maybe the fact that Moss hit 25 homers and had a .900 OPS in the first five months had a little to do with him playing in September.

Again... you are proving my point.

This is the complaint?

MM sucks because he didn't bench a 25 homer .900 OPS guy in favor of a blind player that was injured all year and had a .377 OPS in September?

Yikes. Man are you irrationally stupid on this topic.

zbasspro wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:56 pm I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 16:45 pm

zbasspro wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:56 pm I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 16:51 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 16:45 pm

zbasspro wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 14:56 pm I liked Mike as a player, and I like Mike as a man.

As a manager, he was truly dreadful, even worse than Oli unfortunately.

If that makes me a hater, so be it. There's no sugar coating his ineptness.

You certainly have a right to your opinion, zbass. I have never been a manager/coach at the high school, college, or pro levels, so I feel unqualified to comment on his in-game managing skills. Much less saying he was dreadful.

Is it only baseball you feel like that or do you have no opinions on anything you’ve never done professionally?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:07 am https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 17:15 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:07 am https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

You do realize that fans that didn’t like MM didn’t
Fire him anyway right so it’s kind of stupid to call them out for something they had no control over. You should be calling out Mo and Dewitt for the great twice fired currently unemployed as manager MM