Would you make this blockbuster trade?

[renostl]

Winn is a good SS and they probably should attempt to keep.
I do have concerns about him, his durability and if he is a #8 or #9
spot hitter.
He and JJ can co-exist. Just depend on the teams make up. IF too
many positions start having average or below average production then
where do the bats come from?

[Youboughtit]

Serious question.....why trade Winn? I know you have to give to get, but Winn should be a centerpiece in the Cardinals rebuild.

Currently ranked SS22. Stop with the centerpiece talk. He’s a below average hitter and an above average fielder. Nothing more.

SS22 in what? In fWAR he is the 7th best SS in baseball this season. He is an average hitter and elite defender, his defensive rating is the best among SS’s. He’s #1 in fielding% and T-2nd in OAA.

SS22 offense rank

[Futuregm2]

Serious question.....why trade Winn? I know you have to give to get, but Winn should be a centerpiece in the Cardinals rebuild.

Currently ranked SS22. Stop with the centerpiece talk. He’s a below average hitter and an above average fielder. Nothing more.

SS22 in what? In fWAR he is the 7th best SS in baseball this season. He is an average hitter and elite defender, his defensive rating is the best among SS’s. He’s #1 in fielding% and T-2nd in OAA.

SS22 offense rank

Again, in what? In “offensive rating” he is 18th, OPS is 19th (60 points separates him from top 10). 20th in RBI, 10th in runs scored, etc.

[Youboughtit]

Serious question.....why trade Winn? I know you have to give to get, but Winn should be a centerpiece in the Cardinals rebuild.

Currently ranked SS22. Stop with the centerpiece talk. He’s a below average hitter and an above average fielder. Nothing more.

SS22 in what? In fWAR he is the 7th best SS in baseball this season. He is an average hitter and elite defender, his defensive rating is the best among SS’s. He’s #1 in fielding% and T-2nd in OAA.

SS22 offense rank

Again, in what? In “offensive rating” he is 18th, OPS is 19th (60 points separates him from top 10). 20th in RBI, 10th in runs scored, etc.

18 now. OPS was 22 last time I checked. SS is a power position unless the Cardinals can get power in all 4 corner IF and OF spots. They have to address the lack of power

[icon]

Jobu, it's not "wanting" to get rid of Winn (I'm a big fan) but rather it's structuring a trade idea that actually makes sense.

In this case the Dodgers benefit greatly by strengthening their infield defense and their bullpen.

The Cardinals benefit greatly by acquiring a stud, righthanded hitting OF they control for years.

The Cardinals have JJW playing SS so they have Winn's replacement.

The Dodgers can easily sign K. Tucker to replace Pages in the offseason as well as retain Helsley if they choose to.

You’re really trying to give away Winn.

OPS the last 2 years
Pages: .762
Winn: .723

One plays SS, the other is an OFer. And it’s not like Pages .813 OPS is all that much higher than Winn’s .713. Especially when you factor in elite defense at SS. Winn’s fWAR is 3.0, Pages is 3.2.

And Winn seems to be heating up with an .872 OPS over his last 14 days. Pages is at .709 OPS over his last 28 days and .833 OPS over his last 14.

No "giveaway" at all, fair offer.

2025
Pages
19 HR
.815 OPS
3.1 bWAR

Winn
7 HR
.713 OPS
2.4 bWAR

One plays SS, the other plays CF

And you're IGNORING the Cardinals have NO righthanded hitting OF'ers anywhere close to Pages while having a super talented hitter at Memphis in JJW who's playing SS.

Ok he may not be Winn level defensively but the odds are super strong Winn's not JJW level offensively either, wash.

Again, you can have inane KMOX open line "Let's trade J. Walker and Helsley for A. Pages" ideas

or

You can structure a fair trade.

This is a fair, win-win trade that makes both teams better (especially when you realize the Dodgers can sign K. Tucker if they want to this off season and the Cardinals have JJW ready to step in at SS).

Pages is not the kind of player that I would deal Winn for.

Very low walk rate (4.5%), not a good chase rate (34%), not a great EV (avg 88 mph), not a great barrel% (8%), and a low hard hit% (38%) for a guy that is going to be offense first. He had a great start to the year, other than that he hasn’t shown a ton IMO at the big league level.

So you have no interest in a 24 yr old, right handed hitting OF'er w/power who doesn't hit free agency until 2031

for a weak hitting (career: .257 .308 .386 .694 ), all glove SS who can't steal bases?

I'd make that deal 100 out of 100 times knowing I just added an outstanding hitting righthanded OFer (last one we had was M. Holiday years ago) + I can replace Winn with JJW.

IMO that would be a STEAL for the Cardinals.

Depends on what Pages turns into. If he becomes a .850-.900 OPS player, then that’s great. If he’s more like a .750-.800 OPS player as he has been during his MLB time and as his metrics look like they could be (his expected numbers are .275 avg and .460 SLG combined with probably a .315ish OBP), then I’ll take the 23 year old SS who has had a .723 OPS player over the last 2 years with stud defense. Put Wetherholt at 2B and have the MIF covered for the next decade. Trade Donovan for a power OFer.

Well his "major league time" refers to his rookie season in 2024 and 98 games this season where's he's blossomed into on of the best hitting OF'er (126 OPS+) in MLB.

And no offense but Donny would NEVER bring back a young, controlled for years power hitting OFer like Pages.

He’s basically Burleson (and Burleson’s metrics are actually better than Pages) with better defense.

Avg
Burly: .293 (xAVG: .288)
Pages: .285 (xAVG: .275)

OBP
Burly: .343
Pages: .326

SLG
Burly: .466 (xSLG: .488)
Pages: .489 (xSLG: .460)

BB%
Burly: 7.1%
Pages: 4.8%

K%
Burly: 13.1%
Pages: 21%

Chase rate
Burly: 32.8%
Pages: 34.8%

Contact%:
Burly: 85.9%
Pages: 79.2%

Zone Contact%:
Burly: 90.8%
Pages: 88.0%

Avg EV
Burly: 91.2 mph
Pages: 88.8 mph

Barrel%
Burleson: 9.3%
Pages: 8.0%

Hard hit%
Burleson: 42.5%
Pages: 38.1%


Is that worth Winn and Helsley?

Is Burleson a righthanded hitting, 24 year old who can actually play the OF?

NOPE

Or is he................

How this for a comp?

Player A
2024 - Rookie season
10 HR
47 RBI
.237 .286 .384 .670

2025
26 HR
73 RBI
.270 .305 .555 .860

-vs-

A. Pages
2024 - Rookie season
13 HR
46 RBI
.248 .305 .407 .712

2025
19 HR
63 RBI (and this RBI total is w/Ohtani-Betts-Freeman-Smith-Hernandez and all their RBI's in front of him!)
.285 .326 .489 .815

Player A = P. Crow-Armstrong

A) Why does it matter what he hits? Walker bats RH, Baez bats RH, those are two of what should have been/should be our better OFers talent wise. And Burleson is the only legit LH bat that can hit in the middle of the order and even that is borderline. The other legit MOTOB’s (Contreras/Herrera) that we have are RH. So if anything we should be looking for a LH bat that can hit 4th.

B) Yes, Burleson has played OF more than any other position this year.

C) Yes, Pages has benefitted from hitting in a stacked lineup, thanks for pointing that out.

Why?

A)
Because you know as well as I do this team LACKS a quality righthanded hitting OF'er.

(Walker is a bust thus far, Baez isn't even in the conversation yet)

B)
Why are we even discussing Bumbles, he wasn't in the trade?

C)
Not my point one bit.

My point was his RBI total would've been even greater if those great hitters weren't pouching RBI's from him.

The Pages to PCA comp is compelling.

You're overrating Winn's trade value.

I make that trade 100/100 times and never look back.

And you’re underrating a 23 year old SS that is among the league’s elite defensively and is at least average with the bat. I wouldn’t be looking to get rid of him. The moment we actually have a player live up to what we expect, we’re looking to deal him.

Totally agree. Winn should not be moved, period. He's a superstar already on defense at SS, with 16 OAA and just 3 errors. That's why with his average bat, he's at 3.0 fWAR already. He's far better than Ozzie was with the bat at age 23. And he has a cannon for an arm that Ozzie never had. And it's accurate as well. He saves a lot of runs.

I listen to opponents' broadcasters, and many rave about Winn's defense. It's truly jaw-dropping, and you don't get rid of guys like that at a premium defensive position. Have we gotten so jaded that we just take defense like his for granted? I hope the FO hasn't.

[IndCard75]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

No I wouldn’t do that. I think we are giving up to much in this scenario. For Pages and a pitching prospect I would give up Helsley
Sagesse and Nootbar. I’m not giving up Helsley and Winn.
I might consider subbing Donovan for Sagesse but then the prospect has to be better.

[renostl]

You’re really trying to give away Winn.

OPS the last 2 years
Pages: .762
Winn: .723

One plays SS, the other is an OFer. And it’s not like Pages .813 OPS is all that much higher than Winn’s .713. Especially when you factor in elite defense at SS. Winn’s fWAR is 3.0, Pages is 3.2.

And Winn seems to be heating up with an .872 OPS over his last 14 days. Pages is at .709 OPS over his last 28 days and .833 OPS over his last 14.

No "giveaway" at all, fair offer.

2025
Pages
19 HR
.815 OPS
3.1 bWAR

Winn
7 HR
.713 OPS
2.4 bWAR

One plays SS, the other plays CF

And you're IGNORING the Cardinals have NO righthanded hitting OF'ers anywhere close to Pages while having a super talented hitter at Memphis in JJW who's playing SS.

Ok he may not be Winn level defensively but the odds are super strong Winn's not JJW level offensively either, wash.

Again, you can have inane KMOX open line "Let's trade J. Walker and Helsley for A. Pages" ideas

or

You can structure a fair trade.

This is a fair, win-win trade that makes both teams better (especially when you realize the Dodgers can sign K. Tucker if they want to this off season and the Cardinals have JJW ready to step in at SS).

Pages is not the kind of player that I would deal Winn for.

Very low walk rate (4.5%), not a good chase rate (34%), not a great EV (avg 88 mph), not a great barrel% (8%), and a low hard hit% (38%) for a guy that is going to be offense first. He had a great start to the year, other than that he hasn’t shown a ton IMO at the big league level.

So you have no interest in a 24 yr old, right handed hitting OF'er w/power who doesn't hit free agency until 2031

for a weak hitting (career: .257 .308 .386 .694 ), all glove SS who can't steal bases?

I'd make that deal 100 out of 100 times knowing I just added an outstanding hitting righthanded OFer (last one we had was M. Holiday years ago) + I can replace Winn with JJW.

IMO that would be a STEAL for the Cardinals.

Depends on what Pages turns into. If he becomes a .850-.900 OPS player, then that’s great. If he’s more like a .750-.800 OPS player as he has been during his MLB time and as his metrics look like they could be (his expected numbers are .275 avg and .460 SLG combined with probably a .315ish OBP), then I’ll take the 23 year old SS who has had a .723 OPS player over the last 2 years with stud defense. Put Wetherholt at 2B and have the MIF covered for the next decade. Trade Donovan for a power OFer.

Well his "major league time" refers to his rookie season in 2024 and 98 games this season where's he's blossomed into on of the best hitting OF'er (126 OPS+) in MLB.

And no offense but Donny would NEVER bring back a young, controlled for years power hitting OFer like Pages.

He’s basically Burleson (and Burleson’s metrics are actually better than Pages) with better defense.

Avg
Burly: .293 (xAVG: .288)
Pages: .285 (xAVG: .275)

OBP
Burly: .343
Pages: .326

SLG
Burly: .466 (xSLG: .488)
Pages: .489 (xSLG: .460)

BB%
Burly: 7.1%
Pages: 4.8%

K%
Burly: 13.1%
Pages: 21%

Chase rate
Burly: 32.8%
Pages: 34.8%

Contact%:
Burly: 85.9%
Pages: 79.2%

Zone Contact%:
Burly: 90.8%
Pages: 88.0%

Avg EV
Burly: 91.2 mph
Pages: 88.8 mph

Barrel%
Burleson: 9.3%
Pages: 8.0%

Hard hit%
Burleson: 42.5%
Pages: 38.1%


Is that worth Winn and Helsley?

Is Burleson a righthanded hitting, 24 year old who can actually play the OF?

NOPE

Or is he................

How this for a comp?

Player A
2024 - Rookie season
10 HR
47 RBI
.237 .286 .384 .670

2025
26 HR
73 RBI
.270 .305 .555 .860

-vs-

A. Pages
2024 - Rookie season
13 HR
46 RBI
.248 .305 .407 .712

2025
19 HR
63 RBI (and this RBI total is w/Ohtani-Betts-Freeman-Smith-Hernandez and all their RBI's in front of him!)
.285 .326 .489 .815

Player A = P. Crow-Armstrong

A) Why does it matter what he hits? Walker bats RH, Baez bats RH, those are two of what should have been/should be our better OFers talent wise. And Burleson is the only legit LH bat that can hit in the middle of the order and even that is borderline. The other legit MOTOB’s (Contreras/Herrera) that we have are RH. So if anything we should be looking for a LH bat that can hit 4th.

B) Yes, Burleson has played OF more than any other position this year.

C) Yes, Pages has benefitted from hitting in a stacked lineup, thanks for pointing that out.

Why?

A)
Because you know as well as I do this team LACKS a quality righthanded hitting OF'er.

(Walker is a bust thus far, Baez isn't even in the conversation yet)

B)
Why are we even discussing Bumbles, he wasn't in the trade?

C)
Not my point one bit.

My point was his RBI total would've been even greater if those great hitters weren't pouching RBI's from him.

The Pages to PCA comp is compelling.

You're overrating Winn's trade value.

I make that trade 100/100 times and never look back.

And you’re underrating a 23 year old SS that is among the league’s elite defensively and is at least average with the bat. I wouldn’t be looking to get rid of him. The moment we actually have a player live up to what we expect, we’re looking to deal him.

Totally agree. Winn should not be moved, period. He's a superstar already on defense at SS, with 16 OAA and just 3 errors. That's why with his average bat, he's at 3.0 fWAR already. He's far better than Ozzie was with the bat at age 23. And he has a cannon for an arm that Ozzie never had. And it's accurate as well. He saves a lot of runs.

I listen to opponents' broadcasters, and many rave about Winn's defense. It's truly jaw-dropping, and you don't get rid of guys like that at a premium defensive position. Have we gotten so jaded that we just take defense like his for granted? I hope the FO hasn't.

He is definitely a very good defensive player.
Most here are aware that he is.

It is SS. Meaning that it's not RF where Jason Heyward can get in the same compare as Jordan Walker.
Most SS in the top 10 bring a lot of glove. I'd take any of those top 10 including Maysn.

The trade that brought this up is a baseball trade. One that brings debate, discussion. I might be willing
to do it, might. The rest of the roster impacts. IF it's stronger absolutely a strong NO. Having a likely C, CF, 3B,
and a corner outfield all with OPS under .700 makes you wonder how to get more offense. Add in
a 23 y/o that might have durability questions, the Cards #1 prospect may outhit Winn and can play SS, it becomes a
decent discussion. Well done by Rock.

[rockondlouie]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

No I wouldn’t do that. I think we are giving up to much in this scenario. For Pages and a pitching prospect I would give up Helsley
Sagesse and Nootbar. I’m not giving up Helsley and Winn.
I might consider subbing Donovan for Sagesse but then the prospect has to be better.

That first offer would get the phone hung up on Mo, perhaps you could sub in Donny though?

[sikeston bulldog2]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Not Winn. Change the name and we are good.

[rockondlouie]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Not Winn. Change the name and we are good.

.

Great glove, average at best hitter and can't steal bases.

If he's the fifth-sixth best player, then you've got a WS worthy team.

I'm fine dealing Winn in this deal or if Bloom can find a #2 starter w/control

[sikeston bulldog2]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Not Winn. Change the name and we are good.

.

Great glove, average at best hitter and can't steal bases.

If he's the fifth-sixth best player, then you've got a WS worthy team.

I'm fine dealing Winn in this deal or if Bloom can find a #2 starter w/control

As you know, my Winn comparison to Edgar. Once he matures, I see him as a cornerstone.

He is light hitting, but I think once he gets the right side down he will hit for average. As for stealing bases, such a small part of the make up.

[rockondlouie]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Not Winn. Change the name and we are good.

.

Great glove, average at best hitter and can't steal bases.

If he's the fifth-sixth best player, then you've got a WS worthy team.

I'm fine dealing Winn in this deal or if Bloom can find a #2 starter w/control

As you know, my Winn comparison to Edgar. Once he matures, I see him as a cornerstone.

He is light hitting, but I think once he gets the right side down he will hit for average. As for stealing bases, such a small part of the make up.

Respect that BDog, as you know I just don't see it.

SB's aren't a small part for a player like Winn.

To be an offensive force he'd need to steal 20-30 bases a year.

Edgar stole over 20 bases seven times (high 41 SB's).

Winn will also never drive in runs like Edgar who fell 77 shy of 1,000 for his career (even hit 100 RBI's in 2003)!

Edgar also had a career .343 OB%, Winn's thus far is .306.

Edgar won two Gold Gloves, Winn has a shot at that many and maybe even more.

Edgar was a five time all-star, I doubt Winn makes more than one (if that).

JMO BDog

But I don't see Edgar in Winn.

[sikeston bulldog2]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Not Winn. Change the name and we are good.

.

Great glove, average at best hitter and can't steal bases.

If he's the fifth-sixth best player, then you've got a WS worthy team.

I'm fine dealing Winn in this deal or if Bloom can find a #2 starter w/control

As you know, my Winn comparison to Edgar. Once he matures, I see him as a cornerstone.

He is light hitting, but I think once he gets the right side down he will hit for average. As for stealing bases, such a small part of the make up.

Respect that BDog, as you know I just don't see it.

SB's aren't a small part for a player like Winn.

To be an offensive force he'd need to steal 20-30 bases a year.

Edgar stole over 20 bases seven times (high 41 SB's).

Winn will also never drive in runs like Edgar who fell 77 shy of 1,000 for his career (even hit 100 RBI's in 2003)!

Edgar also had a career .343 OB%, Winn's thus far is .306.

Edgar won two Gold Gloves, Winn has a shot at that many and maybe even more.

Edgar was a five time all-star, I doubt Winn makes more than one (if that).

JMO BDog

But I don't see Edgar in Winn.

Yea my Pallante adventure isn’t going well, hope my Winn assessment is better.

But. Here is my direct question just for you, if he did develop to Edgar status, then do we have a building block, or do you throw Nl that level of maturity comes to late.

[rockondlouie]

R. Helsley
+
M. Winn

for

A. Pages
19 HR
63 RBI
.285 .326 .489 .815


-M. Betts goes back to the OF to replace Pages, Dodgers get a great defensive SS and great bullpen piece.

-Then they sign K. Tucker in the offseason to replace Pages.

-While C. Bloom gets the young, cost controlled (not a free agent until 2031) righthanded hitter he needs for the OF and he slides JJW in at SS 2026 opening day.

-WIN-WIN for both teams!

Get er' done.

Not Winn. Change the name and we are good.

.

Great glove, average at best hitter and can't steal bases.

If he's the fifth-sixth best player, then you've got a WS worthy team.

I'm fine dealing Winn in this deal or if Bloom can find a #2 starter w/control

As you know, my Winn comparison to Edgar. Once he matures, I see him as a cornerstone.

He is light hitting, but I think once he gets the right side down he will hit for average. As for stealing bases, such a small part of the make up.

Respect that BDog, as you know I just don't see it.

SB's aren't a small part for a player like Winn.

To be an offensive force he'd need to steal 20-30 bases a year.

Edgar stole over 20 bases seven times (high 41 SB's).

Winn will also never drive in runs like Edgar who fell 77 shy of 1,000 for his career (even hit 100 RBI's in 2003)!

Edgar also had a career .343 OB%, Winn's thus far is .306.

Edgar won two Gold Gloves, Winn has a shot at that many and maybe even more.

Edgar was a five time all-star, I doubt Winn makes more than one (if that).

JMO BDog

But I don't see Edgar in Winn.

Yea my Pallante adventure isn’t going well, hope my Winn assessment is better.

But. Here is my direct question just for you, if he did develop to Edgar status, then do we have a building block, or do you throw Nl that level of maturity comes to late.

If he stays here, then I hope Winn has ten GG's!

And if he were to mutate into Edgar, then heck yea he's a building block!

One more thing about that comp BDog.

Edgar was a big man (200 lbs) and held up in our brutal summer heat right into the playoffs.

Masyn is a slight man (he may start STing at 180 lbs but he's down ten plus by the all-star break), he had a really good August last year but melted in September (.196 .234 .382 .616).

I'm watching to see if it happens again this season, let's hope not.

If the Cardinals make the playoffs, then we'd need him strong in Sept & Oct!

[Bushiro]

Winn is a bona fide defensive superstar at the most premium position on the field. He has 16 OAA and is +5 DRS in 764 innings. And he has only 3 errors this year to date -- almost unheard of at SS. And he's already far better than Ozzie was at his age with the bat. 3.0 fWAR to date. There's little chance JJ would be anywhere near Winn on D at SS.

I'd sub Donovan in that deal for Winn. He's much older with less control and has zero chance to ever be a superstar. Winn still has that chance. And there is a logjam at 2B, not at SS. JJ can be moved in at 2B for Donovan.

Winn will never be a superstar

Finally someone said it...you would be correct
....he will not be a superstar

[scoutyjones2]

Winn is a bona fide defensive superstar at the most premium position on the field. He has 16 OAA and is +5 DRS in 764 innings. And he has only 3 errors this year to date -- almost unheard of at SS. And he's already far better than Ozzie was at his age with the bat. 3.0 fWAR to date. There's little chance JJ would be anywhere near Winn on D at SS.

I'd sub Donovan in that deal for Winn. He's much older with less control and has zero chance to ever be a superstar. Winn still has that chance. And there is a logjam at 2B, not at SS. JJ can be moved in at 2B for Donovan.

Winn will never be a superstar

Finally someone said it...you would be correct
....he will not be a superstar

Watch out, they will call you a hater of Winn