STLtoday.com

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:25 am

RogerGrace wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:15 am

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

Scott is a younger defense-first version of Siani that probably has greater offensive upside. Michael Helman is a right-handed fourth outfielder that can back up SS. I would move on from Siani. Winning clubs don't rely on Michael Siani's for offensive production in order to win. This Cards team needs offense from CF.

So then you are saying Burleson can play CF?

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:02 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 10:28 am

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 09:33 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 08:45 am

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

Be honest Mel, you're a Noot hater and denier who refuses to accept the FACT that (when healthy and in the OF) he's the best all-round OF'er in the system and one of the best in MLB:

Over the last three seasons, among MLB outfielders that have at least 1,000 plate appearances over that time:

-Nootbaar ranks 24th with a wRCT+ that’s 18 percent above the league average

-5th in walk rate (14%)

-15th in onbase percentage (.351)

-26th in OPS (.777.)

And his slugging percentage is a respectable .426

Stats per Bernie

Sure Siani is the superior defensive CF'er and on a team that has a solid offense he'd get playing time.

No way he's 40-50 DRS better than Noot.

BUT

This team needs OFFENSE and can't afford the luxury of a glove only CF'er (or Catcher which is why I. Hererra needs to be behind the plate 120 games w/P. Pages only getting 40+ starts).

If 2025 even remotely mirrors 2024 from the perspective of player performance, Pages must start over Herrera at C and Siani must start over Mootbaar in CF.
That is the correct baseball decision for those 2 positions.
That is not necessarily and endorsement of Pages or Siani but is rather a reflection of the current status of the roster.
Frankly, neither decision is in any way a close call.
Now, performance could change - players can progress or retreat - but that is the current reality.

No way in h e l l Pages starts over Hererra (although like you, the little idiot in the dugout will also start him way too many games) AGAIN on an offensively challenged team when Hererra is one of the teams best hitters.

Sinai in CF is a JOKE

You're right, neither decision is even close.

It's NOOT in CF & Hererra behind the plate, the other two aren't MLB hitters.

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm
Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.

That's absurd. You know nothing about runs saved by defense and the stats belie your assertion. Siani is elite but he's had a career +8 Defensive Runs Saved and 16 Outs Above Average in 137 games. Noot is +9/+6 for those same stats in far more games.

[/quote]
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
[/quote]

Ha ha ha. You are saying that Nootbar isn't good BUT we should trade him for a great RF. Ha ha ha. Instead of pulling it out of your derriere, why not suggest a trade for this mythical RF?

ClassicO wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm
Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.

That's absurd. You know nothing about runs saved by defense and the stats belie your assertion. Siani is elite but he's had a career +8 Defensive Runs Saved and 16 Outs Above Average in 137 games. Noot is +9/+6 for those same stats in far more games.

The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
[/quote]

Ha ha ha. You are saying that Nootbar isn't good BUT we should trade him for a great RF. Ha ha ha. Instead of pulling it out of your derriere, why not suggest a trade for this mythical RF?
[/quote]

I recommend comprehending a post prior to responding to one.
I did not advise trading Mootbaar for another outfielder.
For 2 years I have correctly advised trading Lars The Human Sushi-baar because he will never be what Mo dreams of.
And for 5+ years I have correctly advised acquiring a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Notice that nowhere, at no time, have I suggested these are one and the same move.
In fact, I have specifically stated the opposite many times.
Including my post above which you failed to understand.

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:04 pm

Wattage wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:33 pm

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:00 pm Among qualified CF's last year Leody Tavaras came in last at .641 OPS.

Siani = .570


It's a joke.

Horrible bat, better than VS in 2024.
They can't be that level bad and get starters time nor
should both be on the roster it that's who they are in 2025.

This year he is a place holder until we think victor scott is ready cuz we wrent really trying to win. Last year considering we were still in playoff race most the year, its embarrassing we kept siani as starter as long as we did instead of making a move.

They did make a move.. they traded away a CF who won the NLCS MVP en route to winning the world series.

They literally had the solution to their biggest problem and traded him away for a cheap 2025 SP.

the motivation of that trade was twofold.

they did not want to be anywhere near paying TE $10 million to $12 million/year. I disagree with that.
they also probably have some reservation with serious wrist injuries and their futures. I can't disagree with that
$10-$12 million in dead money hurts the Cards way more than LAD.

Regarding the injury, it clearly didn't scare the Dodgers then or now.

And if they were confident enough after evaluating it, why weren't we, his own org? It was never about the injury. It was just a convenient excuse to save some money.

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:03 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:25 am

RogerGrace wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:15 am

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

Scott is a younger defense-first version of Siani that probably has greater offensive upside. Michael Helman is a right-handed fourth outfielder that can back up SS. I would move on from Siani. Winning clubs don't rely on Michael Siani's for offensive production in order to win. This Cards team needs offense from CF.

So then you are saying Burleson can play CF?

I think you know that I am not saying that Burly can play CF.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:14 pm

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:02 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 10:28 am

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 09:33 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 08:45 am

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

Be honest Mel, you're a Noot hater and denier who refuses to accept the FACT that (when healthy and in the OF) he's the best all-round OF'er in the system and one of the best in MLB:

Over the last three seasons, among MLB outfielders that have at least 1,000 plate appearances over that time:

-Nootbaar ranks 24th with a wRCT+ that’s 18 percent above the league average

-5th in walk rate (14%)

-15th in onbase percentage (.351)

-26th in OPS (.777.)

And his slugging percentage is a respectable .426

Stats per Bernie

Sure Siani is the superior defensive CF'er and on a team that has a solid offense he'd get playing time.

No way he's 40-50 DRS better than Noot.

BUT

This team needs OFFENSE and can't afford the luxury of a glove only CF'er (or Catcher which is why I. Hererra needs to be behind the plate 120 games w/P. Pages only getting 40+ starts).

If 2025 even remotely mirrors 2024 from the perspective of player performance, Pages must start over Herrera at C and Siani must start over Mootbaar in CF.
That is the correct baseball decision for those 2 positions.
That is not necessarily and endorsement of Pages or Siani but is rather a reflection of the current status of the roster.
Frankly, neither decision is in any way a close call.
Now, performance could change - players can progress or retreat - but that is the current reality.

No way in h e l l Pages starts over Hererra (although like you, the little idiot in the dugout will also start him way too many games) AGAIN on an offensively challenged team when Hererra is one of the teams best hitters.

Sinai in CF is a JOKE

You're right, neither decision is even close.

It's NOOT in CF & Hererra behind the plate, the other two aren't MLB hitters.

Maybe Noot and Herrerra aren't MLB CFer and Catchers respectively.

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

The team needs offense as demostrated last year. Yet, winning teams need to be strong up the middle defensively. He is truly a major league defender!

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 14:04 pm

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:03 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:25 am

RogerGrace wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:15 am

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

Scott is a younger defense-first version of Siani that probably has greater offensive upside. Michael Helman is a right-handed fourth outfielder that can back up SS. I would move on from Siani. Winning clubs don't rely on Michael Siani's for offensive production in order to win. This Cards team needs offense from CF.

So then you are saying Burleson can play CF?

I think you know that I am not saying that Burly can play CF.

I was laughing thinking about Burleson in CF. But maybe it's a good idea. Think of the comic relief and fun it would be as a fan. I mean it isn't as if STL is going to contend for anything this year so.....

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 14:04 pm

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:03 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:25 am

RogerGrace wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:15 am

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

Scott is a younger defense-first version of Siani that probably has greater offensive upside. Michael Helman is a right-handed fourth outfielder that can back up SS. I would move on from Siani. Winning clubs don't rely on Michael Siani's for offensive production in order to win. This Cards team needs offense from CF.

So then you are saying Burleson can play CF?

I think you know that I am not saying that Burly can play CF.

Correct.
Simply making the point that it is a bit more complex than "this Cards team needs offense from CF".
Yes, more offense in CF would be good.
But the real issue is just how bad the corners have been for a long, long time.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 15:41 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:14 pm

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:02 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 10:28 am

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 09:33 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 08:45 am

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 11:00 am Noot needs to be in CF AND LEADING OFF!

Siani only comes in for late inning defense.

But the little idiot in the dugout will play Siani way, way too much in CF (and probably P. Pages behind the plate too many game too).

Moron

Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.
The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Mo failed.
Therefore, the offense must rest on the infield/DH roles.
Good news is that group will be far better than last season's.

No dice Noot-hater

And not even close to being 40-50 DRS saved in CF over Noot.

The correct answer, of course, is to EXTEND Noot who is the BEST all-round OF'er in the organization.

I am never for or against any player.
Completely impartial in all analysis.
In 2024, Mootbaar rated -57 runs defensively in CF per 1200 innings.
Siani ranked +37.
Do the math.
That is a 94 run difference between the two in CF over the course over 1200 innings, which is generally regarded as the benchmark for a full season.
Now, do I believe that gap would actually play out to that level?
No.
Too many variables.
But even if the gap were only half that amount, it is empirically true that over a full season in CF Mootbaar would allow several dozen more runs than Siani - and easily within the 40-50 range I specified.
And, that does not take into account the additional runs that would be allowed in LF and RF as a result of the vastly reduced support those spots would receive.
Now, can an argument be made that Lars The Human Sushi-baar is a better offensive player (when not in the medical ward) and that the difference in offense is worth the massive defensive disadvantage?
Sure - but that is not the conversation we are having here.

Be honest Mel, you're a Noot hater and denier who refuses to accept the FACT that (when healthy and in the OF) he's the best all-round OF'er in the system and one of the best in MLB:

Over the last three seasons, among MLB outfielders that have at least 1,000 plate appearances over that time:

-Nootbaar ranks 24th with a wRCT+ that’s 18 percent above the league average

-5th in walk rate (14%)

-15th in onbase percentage (.351)

-26th in OPS (.777.)

And his slugging percentage is a respectable .426

Stats per Bernie

Sure Siani is the superior defensive CF'er and on a team that has a solid offense he'd get playing time.

No way he's 40-50 DRS better than Noot.

BUT

This team needs OFFENSE and can't afford the luxury of a glove only CF'er (or Catcher which is why I. Hererra needs to be behind the plate 120 games w/P. Pages only getting 40+ starts).

If 2025 even remotely mirrors 2024 from the perspective of player performance, Pages must start over Herrera at C and Siani must start over Mootbaar in CF.
That is the correct baseball decision for those 2 positions.
That is not necessarily and endorsement of Pages or Siani but is rather a reflection of the current status of the roster.
Frankly, neither decision is in any way a close call.
Now, performance could change - players can progress or retreat - but that is the current reality.

No way in h e l l Pages starts over Hererra (although like you, the little idiot in the dugout will also start him way too many games) AGAIN on an offensively challenged team when Hererra is one of the teams best hitters.

Sinai in CF is a JOKE

You're right, neither decision is even close.

It's NOOT in CF & Hererra behind the plate, the other two aren't MLB hitters.

Maybe Noot and Herrerra aren't MLB CFer and Catchers respectively.

Defensively, they are not.

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 16:42 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 14:04 pm

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:03 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:25 am

RogerGrace wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 11:15 am

Web7 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 09:16 am The guy can’t hit …. We need to let Scott play and if he fails then go to Siani

Neither of them can hit. They are both fast and otherwise overvalued.

Scott is a younger defense-first version of Siani that probably has greater offensive upside. Michael Helman is a right-handed fourth outfielder that can back up SS. I would move on from Siani. Winning clubs don't rely on Michael Siani's for offensive production in order to win. This Cards team needs offense from CF.

So then you are saying Burleson can play CF?

I think you know that I am not saying that Burly can play CF.

I was laughing thinking about Burleson in CF. But maybe it's a good idea. Think of the comic relief and fun it would be as a fan. I mean it isn't as if STL is going to contend for anything this year so.....

Wonder what the modern day record is for the number of inside-the-park HR allowed by a team in a single season is......

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 00:34 am

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:04 pm

Wattage wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:33 pm

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:00 pm Among qualified CF's last year Leody Tavaras came in last at .641 OPS.

Siani = .570


It's a joke.

Horrible bat, better than VS in 2024.
They can't be that level bad and get starters time nor
should both be on the roster it that's who they are in 2025.

This year he is a place holder until we think victor scott is ready cuz we wrent really trying to win. Last year considering we were still in playoff race most the year, its embarrassing we kept siani as starter as long as we did instead of making a move.

They did make a move.. they traded away a CF who won the NLCS MVP en route to winning the world series.

They literally had the solution to their biggest problem and traded him away for a cheap 2025 SP.

the motivation of that trade was twofold.

they did not want to be anywhere near paying TE $10 million to $12 million/year. I disagree with that.
they also probably have some reservation with serious wrist injuries and their futures. I can't disagree with that
$10-$12 million in dead money hurts the Cards way more than LAD.

Regarding the injury, it clearly didn't scare the Dodgers then or now.

And if they were confident enough after evaluating it, why weren't we, his own org? It was never about the injury. It was just a convenient excuse to save some money.

Agree with your take on the Cards motivation and I disagree with their method.

Comparing the two teams and what they may or may not see as a risk is a little apples to oranges.

renostl wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 19:21 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑24 Feb 2025 00:34 am

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 17:04 pm

Wattage wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:33 pm

renostl wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:26 pm

Chubbs0910 wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 16:00 pm Among qualified CF's last year Leody Tavaras came in last at .641 OPS.

Siani = .570


It's a joke.

Horrible bat, better than VS in 2024.
They can't be that level bad and get starters time nor
should both be on the roster it that's who they are in 2025.

This year he is a place holder until we think victor scott is ready cuz we wrent really trying to win. Last year considering we were still in playoff race most the year, its embarrassing we kept siani as starter as long as we did instead of making a move.

They did make a move.. they traded away a CF who won the NLCS MVP en route to winning the world series.

They literally had the solution to their biggest problem and traded him away for a cheap 2025 SP.

the motivation of that trade was twofold.

they did not want to be anywhere near paying TE $10 million to $12 million/year. I disagree with that.
they also probably have some reservation with serious wrist injuries and their futures. I can't disagree with that
$10-$12 million in dead money hurts the Cards way more than LAD.

Regarding the injury, it clearly didn't scare the Dodgers then or now.

And if they were confident enough after evaluating it, why weren't we, his own org? It was never about the injury. It was just a convenient excuse to save some money.

Agree with your take on the Cards motivation and I disagree with their method.

Comparing the two teams and what they may or may not see as a risk is a little apples to oranges.

Or floppy disks to CD's

Melville wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:43 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑23 Feb 2025 12:37 pm

Melville wrote: ↑22 Feb 2025 15:10 pm
Siani is 40-50 runs better defensively in CF over the course of a season compared to Mootbaar.

That's absurd. You know nothing about runs saved by defense and the stats belie your assertion. Siani is elite but he's had a career +8 Defensive Runs Saved and 16 Outs Above Average in 137 games. Noot is +9/+6 for those same stats in far more games.

The correct answer was to trade Mootbaar and acquire a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.

Ha ha ha. You are saying that Nootbar isn't good BUT we should trade him for a great RF. Ha ha ha. Instead of pulling it out of your derriere, why not suggest a trade for this mythical RF?
[/quote]

I recommend comprehending a post prior to responding to one.
I did not advise trading Mootbaar for another outfielder.
For 2 years I have correctly advised trading Lars The Human Sushi-baar because he will never be what Mo dreams of.
And for 5+ years I have correctly advised acquiring a high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder.
Notice that nowhere, at no time, have I suggested these are one and the same move.
In fact, I have specifically stated the opposite many times.
Including my post above which you failed to understand.
[/quote]



So, your dumb diatribe has three huge holes that render it useless babble.
1) Who do they get back for Noot? Not much based on your analysis.
2) Which Cards do they trade for this mythical RF?
3) Who is this "high quality, productive, established, reliable RH corner outfielder?" You must know if you've been calling for it for 5 years!
I'll wait...
PS - Any idiot can propose a trade. The details are what count.

Like when you proposed the Card should sign FA Comforto - 24 Oct 2021 13:21 The CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION is EXACTLY what I have analyzed and proposed for months. Sign Conforto. What a disaster that would have been for three years. And he'll soon be out of baseball.
Or the equally dumb signing of Chris Taylor (to play 2b!), who has been an equal disaster.
Oh - and what happened to the guarantee that Arenado would be traded? You missed that timeline.