JaseMan wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 08:29 am
Honestly, they were never going to win a World Series with Gray, WC, and a declining Arenado.
They needed to get rid of those contracts, get something in return, and get younger. For too long this organization has been trying to win the Wild Card with 85 wins.
I couldn't be happier right now. This should have happened the same off season they signed Lynn and Gibson.
The problem is that Oli and his coaching staff are still here, and so are Gorman and Walker. That's not an optimistic combo at all.
Suppose we had stopped signing any veterans after 2023, then what? All the existing Vets had NTCs and threatened to exercise them - Nado actually did. And we had zero healthy talent in the minors. And the talent we have brought up has largely gone backwards or stalled out under Oli and co. A couple like I have hope for Winn and JJW, Burlely and Herera are servicable, but a couple others are just bad at hitting, and then Gorman and Walker are lost. Its not enough. And there wasn't a path to get enough from vets with NTCs unless/until they we waited them out for years to convince them to accept trades?
And now that we have traded them all away, the remaining question becomes did we get enough exciting talent to actually move the needle or will this dumping season prove to be another repeat of the 2023 trade deadline where everyone acquired can't stay healthy and we are just "glad" we got the bucket of balls instead of nothing for expiring contracts?
Whether these guys develop into solid producers becomes an exercise in MLB continued development after they matriculate out of the minors. Oli may have "confidence" he's the right guy and they are the right prospects, but he doesn't have a track record of turning anyone into real stars.
All good points, but imagine had they taken a good look and realize the minors were lacking in real depth and traded Goldie when he was coming off his MVP season. Im not saying they should have, but it was clear there was no real direction.
Again NTC. To me it’s just nonsensical to play what if about trading people who could have rejected the trades.
It makes more sense to speculate on things we could’ve done that we’re fully under our control such as firing Ollie after the meltdown in the 2022 playoffs or his throwing TO under the bus on TV and losing all optimism in the clubhouse in 2023.
You fire Ollie by the middle of 2023 at the latest, and bring in an experienced manager with the right coaches, and maybe Walker and Gorman would be producers by now. Or maybe that manager recognizes a fatal flaw in their makeups like Tony was so good at doing and has them traded for productive talent with better baseball smarts and work ethics back when they still had trade value.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
I thought Helsley choked. Along with Nado and Goldy
Oli stood there like a deer caught in the headlights watching helplessly as Helsely melted down.
Last I looked it's the Manager's job to see this and make a change before he cost his team a playoff game.
But keep cheerleading for Oli.
It's not cheerleading. Difference of opinion. How many runs did the Cards score? Who else would you have liked to have thrown?
And what did you claim at the time? Or is this more monday morning QB'ing.
The mistake was pulling Quintana way too early, thereby forcing himself to use his high leverage BP guys too soo. You don't need to use your bullets that early when your starter is cruising. He painted himself into a corner and had few options left when Helsely didnt have it. Bad managing.
And no, this is exactly what I was saying as it was happening.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
Also way above the Pythagorean estimates in both 2024 and 2025.
I don't love Marmol. But he's not the clueless dumpsterfire some on here make him out to be.
Name one or 2 things he does well as a manager to win baseball games??? Not yucking it up with the boys…..or telling us how “little Timmy and little Johnny are progressing well with their instruction and we’re seeing signs of improvement every day…….or the boys are really trying hard”
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
I thought Helsley choked. Along with Nado and Goldy
Oli stood there like a deer caught in the headlights watching helplessly as Helsely melted down.
Last I looked it's the Manager's job to see this and make a change before he cost his team a playoff game.
But keep cheerleading for Oli.
It's not cheerleading. Difference of opinion. How many runs did the Cards score? Who else would you have liked to have thrown?
And what did you claim at the time? Or is this more monday morning QB'ing.
The mistake was pulling Quintana way too early, thereby forcing himself to use his high leverage BP guys too soo. You don't need to use your bullets that early when your starter is cruising. He painted himself into a corner and had few options left when Helsely didnt have it. Bad managing.
And no, this is exactly what I was saying as it was happening.
And yet the bully was fine till the 9th...quintana pulled after 5 and a third.
Cusecards wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 09:49 am
We all know the OF is jumbled with nobody locked in to a spot.
Maybe Noot if 100% healthy.
So while a RH bat would be a plus I can see where the “timing” may not be right at the moment??
Like it or not we need to get “clarity” on pretty much everyone:
Noot? Is it time to move on?
Walker? Make or break season?
Scott? What about his bat?
Church? Who knows?
Herrera? Is he changing positions?
Josh Baez? Can he become a factor after the break?
Unless they know who they are going with I just wonder if adding another to the mix causes problems with PT??
What I’ve heard Bloom say is that he hasn’t turned his phone off, and that he is open to adding a RH OFer. I’m not sure this qualifies as a disagreement. The truth is that the 26th roster spot is not a high priority for either Bloom or Oli right now.
Being receptive and leaving his options open makes sense.
Quite often....you might get a better deal if teams don’t hint at your desperation to make one?
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
He had his ace, Helsley for the 9th and he failed.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
I thought Helsley choked. Along with Nado and Goldy
Oli stood there like a deer caught in the headlights watching helplessly as Helsely melted down.
Last I looked it's the Manager's job to see this and make a change before he cost his team a playoff game.
But keep cheerleading for Oli.
It's not cheerleading. Difference of opinion. How many runs did the Cards score? Who else would you have liked to have thrown?
And what did you claim at the time? Or is this more monday morning QB'ing.
The mistake was pulling Quintana way too early, thereby forcing himself to use his high leverage BP guys too soo. You don't need to use your bullets that early when your starter is cruising. He painted himself into a corner and had few options left when Helsely didnt have it. Bad managing.
And no, this is exactly what I was saying as it was happening.
And yet the bully was fine till the 9th...quintana pulled after 5 and a third.
Yeah, you must be pretty thick.
The issue wasnt that the Pen was bad, it was that he used all his bullets and had nobody else to go to when Hels didn't have it. NO NEED TO USE YOUR BULLETS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
Also way above the Pythagorean estimates in both 2024 and 2025.
I don't love Marmol. But he's not the clueless dumpsterfire some on here make him out to be.
Name one or 2 things he does well as a manager to win baseball games??? Not yucking it up with the boys…..or telling us how “little Timmy and little Johnny are progressing well with their instruction and we’re seeing signs of improvement every day…….or the boys are really trying hard”
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
He had his ace, Helsley for the 9th and he failed.
Yeah, you must be pretty thick.
The issue wasnt that the Pen was bad, it was that he used all his bullets and had nobody else to go to when Hels didn't have it. NO NEED TO USE YOUR BULLETS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
He had his ace, Helsley for the 9th and he failed.
Yeah, you must be pretty thick.
The issue wasnt that the Pen was bad, it was that he used all his bullets and had nobody else to go to when Hels didn't have it. NO NEED TO USE YOUR BULLETS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
That's your opinion, and yet it worked till Helsley imploded...in the 9th. The top reliever on the team!
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
Also way above the Pythagorean estimates in both 2024 and 2025.
I don't love Marmol. But he's not the clueless dumpsterfire some on here make him out to be.
Name one or 2 things he does well as a manager to win baseball games??? Not yucking it up with the boys…..or telling us how “little Timmy and little Johnny are progressing well with their instruction and we’re seeing signs of improvement every day…….or the boys are really trying hard”
Oli does EXACTLY what’s expected of him by management: implement the decisions made by the collaborative group and don’t rock the boat. And oh, face the media and take the bullet. Eventually, he’ll be fired so management has someone to blame and deflect from them. If you’re expecting anything different from anyone different, you’re going to be sadly disappointed. Oli is the prototype for the 2026 MLB manager.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
He had his ace, Helsley for the 9th and he failed.
Yeah, you must be pretty thick.
The issue wasnt that the Pen was bad, it was that he used all his bullets and had nobody else to go to when Hels didn't have it. NO NEED TO USE YOUR BULLETS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
That's your opinion, and yet it worked till Helsley imploded...in the 9th. The top reliever on the team!
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
He had his ace, Helsley for the 9th and he failed.
Yeah, you must be pretty thick.
The issue wasnt that the Pen was bad, it was that he used all his bullets and had nobody else to go to when Hels didn't have it. NO NEED TO USE YOUR BULLETS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
That's your opinion, and yet it worked till Helsley imploded...in the 9th. The top reliever on the team!
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑19 Feb 2026 07:31 am
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with plenty of veteran leadership.
We had losing seasons 2 of the last 3 seasons with OLI IN THE DUGOUT.
And they won NL Central when he had talent.
Who'd have guessed
And he choked in Game 1 of the playoffs.
Who'd have guessed
Helsley had to pitch in the 8th. Oli pulled Q too early, and it snowballed from there, burning Hicks in the 6th, Gallegos in the 7th. Helsley got his 3 outs but they weren't the last 3 outs, needed 5. Also Oli should have known he was hurt from the week before and setup the 9th better.
Massive rookie manager blunder when a franchise like the STL Cardinals shouldn't be employing rookie managers. There are other places to get experience and make ugly mistakes out of your system and prove yourself. Tony did that with the White Sox before becoming a HOFer with the A's and Cardinals. That's how we should be recruiting top managers.
100% correct and spot on Carp.
The mistake of pulling Quintana caused him to needlessly burn through his weapons before needed. Just complete and total incompetence.
He had his ace, Helsley for the 9th and he failed.
Yeah, you must be pretty thick.
The issue wasnt that the Pen was bad, it was that he used all his bullets and had nobody else to go to when Hels didn't have it. NO NEED TO USE YOUR BULLETS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
That's your opinion, and yet it worked till Helsley imploded...in the 9th. The top reliever on the team!
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Not really. But I know baseball is hard for you.
Yes! So complex for poor little ole me
I noticed you didn't refute what I posted
Because you apparently didn't comprehend my previous response. Read it again. I even capitalized part of it for you to make it easier.
