What makes anyone think Church is anything more than Siani?

[CCard]

Looks like a no power outfielder that is okay defensively. People here think he should challenge Scott for CF? Maybe you all see something I don't in Church.

This OP implies Church is getting a lot of hype.

I haven’t seen it.

I've admitted that his stats from AAA are better than I thought. I just didn't see that much but it appears he's much improved. Still he has to do it in the majors and if he does I assure you I will admit that I was wrong. I would love it if he came to St Louis and OPS'd .900. Believe me.

[Cardinals4Life]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

[cosmo.kramer]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

In WAR's defense, Scott was essentially:
1.5 wins *below* average with his bat,
0.5 wins above average with his baserunning,
1.3 wins above average with his defensive play,
0.3 wins above average for his defensive position (CF)

That totals 0.6 wins above average.

Given his PA's, they convert from "above average" to "above replacement" by adding another 1.6 wins

So that totals his 2.2 wins above replacement

Obviously it's not perfect, but I think the above/below average figures above seem about right

[cosmo.kramer]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

In WAR's defense, Scott was essentially:
1.5 wins *below* average with his bat,
0.5 wins above average with his baserunning,
1.3 wins above average with his defensive play,
0.3 wins above average for his defensive position (CF)

That totals 0.6 wins above average.

Given his PA's, they convert from "above average" to "above replacement" by adding another 1.6 wins

So that totals his 2.2 wins above replacement

Obviously it's not perfect, but I think the above/below average figures above seem about right

Figured I'd break down Donovan's 2.7 as well:
1.1 wins *above* average with his bat,
0.1 wins below average with his baserunning,
0.2 wins below average with his defensive play,
0.25 wins above average for his defensive position (2B/SS/LF)

That totals 1.05 wins above average.

Given his PA's, they convert from "above average" to "above replacement" by adding another 1.65 wins

So that totals his 2.7 wins above replacement

[rockondlouie]

Looks like a no power outfielder that is okay defensively. People here think he should challenge Scott for CF? Maybe you all see something I don't in Church.

Sure it's a SSS but he doesn't seem like another player who's J.A.G.

I mean, I guess it's okay to give him some playing time and see if he can keep up good play. He's just such a low floor player in my eyes. Then again, I literally hated Siani getting playing time, and for good reason.

He'll likely get it too cc, especially while Noot's out and again if (when?) J. Walker hits the skids.....again.

(And I hated Sinai getting playing time too)

It's been brought to my attention that Church has been much better than Siani so I guess (depending on his future play) that I stand corrected. I certainly hope that I was wrong about he and he becomes a great player. He still has to do it in the majors though.

They're using Church's minor league stats, I'm not a fan of extrapolating them to MLB.

Sinai as a Cardinal:
.225 .282 .278 .561

Church in extremely small sample size of 65 PA:
.179 .254 .250 .504

As you said, like every player with great minor league stats he still has to prove it in MLB or he's nothing more than a AAAA player.

[cosmo.kramer]

Looks like a no power outfielder that is okay defensively. People here think he should challenge Scott for CF? Maybe you all see something I don't in Church.

Sure it's a SSS but he doesn't seem like another player who's J.A.G.

I mean, I guess it's okay to give him some playing time and see if he can keep up good play. He's just such a low floor player in my eyes. Then again, I literally hated Siani getting playing time, and for good reason.

He'll likely get it too cc, especially while Noot's out and again if (when?) J. Walker hits the skids.....again.

(And I hated Sinai getting playing time too)

It's been brought to my attention that Church has been much better than Siani so I guess (depending on his future play) that I stand corrected. I certainly hope that I was wrong about he and he becomes a great player. He still has to do it in the majors though.

They're using Church's minor league stats, I'm not a fan of extrapolating them to MLB.

Sinai as a Cardinal:
.225 .282 .278 .561

Church in extremely small sample size of 65 PA:
.179 .254 .250 .504

As you said, like every player with great minor league stats he still has to prove it in MLB or he's nothing more than a AAAA player.

I don't think Church replicates his '25 minor league numbers in MLB. My point was Siani never showed an ounce of hitting ability, even in the minors, while Church at least has shown the potential.

[rockondlouie]

Looks like a no power outfielder that is okay defensively. People here think he should challenge Scott for CF? Maybe you all see something I don't in Church.

Sure it's a SSS but he doesn't seem like another player who's J.A.G.

I mean, I guess it's okay to give him some playing time and see if he can keep up good play. He's just such a low floor player in my eyes. Then again, I literally hated Siani getting playing time, and for good reason.

He'll likely get it too cc, especially while Noot's out and again if (when?) J. Walker hits the skids.....again.

(And I hated Sinai getting playing time too)

It's been brought to my attention that Church has been much better than Siani so I guess (depending on his future play) that I stand corrected. I certainly hope that I was wrong about he and he becomes a great player. He still has to do it in the majors though.

They're using Church's minor league stats, I'm not a fan of extrapolating them to MLB.

Sinai as a Cardinal:
.225 .282 .278 .561

Church in extremely small sample size of 65 PA:
.179 .254 .250 .504

As you said, like every player with great minor league stats he still has to prove it in MLB or he's nothing more than a AAAA player.

I don't think Church replicates his '25 minor league numbers in MLB. My point was Siani never showed an ounce of hitting ability, even in the minors, while Church at least has shown the potential.

We shall see, let's hope he does but I'm not holding my breathe he's anything more than a fourth OF'er.

(and we're in agreement, he's got a much higher ceiling than the no-hit Siani)

[Melville]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Correct.

[renostl]

Looks like a no power outfielder that is okay defensively. People here think he should challenge Scott for CF? Maybe you all see something I don't in Church.

Church is a WAY better player than Siani. Not even close. Church has shown good offensive numbers in the minors. He is a plus defender, can handle CF, and has a very strong arm. Probably not the power numbers for an everyday corner OFer, but he has a chance to be very good.

Give the guy a shot. I think he will impress.

Well, he's not materially better in the Jim Edmonds/Mike Trout/Aaron Judge/Andy Pages type of direction that we need to climb out of 29th place in SLG.

Better players can and do exist in CF and that's where the conversation needs to be.

There's 3 teams in the NLC that have a CF that has an OPS 150 points higher than
what St. Louis fielded. That is too big of a gap and needs to be closed by a lot.

These 2 players may be currently competing with each other but won't be the
owner of anything but a 4th or 5th OFer until the show much more than what they have
to date. They have to get >.700, imo. I don't know if there's one in the system either. Mitchell? Peete?

[Carp4Cy]

Looks like a no power outfielder that is okay defensively. People here think he should challenge Scott for CF? Maybe you all see something I don't in Church.

Church is a WAY better player than Siani. Not even close. Church has shown good offensive numbers in the minors. He is a plus defender, can handle CF, and has a very strong arm. Probably not the power numbers for an everyday corner OFer, but he has a chance to be very good.

Give the guy a shot. I think he will impress.

Well, he's not materially better in the Jim Edmonds/Mike Trout/Aaron Judge/Andy Pages type of direction that we need to climb out of 29th place in SLG.

Better players can and do exist in CF and that's where the conversation needs to be.

There's 3 teams in the NLC that have a CF that has an OPS 150 points higher than
what St. Louis fielded. That is too big of a gap and needs to be closed by a lot.

These 2 players may be currently competing with each other but won't be the
owner of anything but a 4th or 5th OFer until the show much more than what they have
to date. They have to get >.700, imo. I don't know if there's one in the system either. Mitchell? Peete?

, we need to trade for Andy Pages or try for Spencer Jones and hope he works out

[Cardinals1964]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Is it made up? I never put much into it until I read a post and decided to research. It might be made up but the individual players War add up to how many game the teams win plus 47.

[Cardinals4Life]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Is it made up? I never put much into it until I read a post and decided to research. It might be made up but the individual players War add up to how many game the teams win plus 47.

It is most definitely made up.

[Cardinals1964]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Is it made up? I never put much into it until I read a post and decided to research. It might be made up but the individual players War add up to how many game the teams win plus 47.

It is most definitely made up.

Then why do the individual players on the team add up to team wins Plus 47? I set out in my research of what WAR was to prove it wrong. Made up, like you say. My research proved me wrong. Invest some time in it. You might change your mind. Maybe not.

[Cardinals4Life]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Is it made up? I never put much into it until I read a post and decided to research. It might be made up but the individual players War add up to how many game the teams win plus 47.

It is most definitely made up.

Then why do the individual players on the team add up to team wins Plus 47? I set out in my research of what WAR was to prove it wrong. Made up, like you say. My research proved me wrong. Invest some time in it. You might change your mind. Maybe not.

No idea what that means. I just know that it isn't a real statistic that can be measured. Unfortunately today's game is so infatuated with it, you see more about WAR than actual production stats.
Don't need WAR to tell me who the good players are. Ive watched baseball long enough to be able to see that for myself.

[Cardinals1964]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Is it made up? I never put much into it until I read a post and decided to research. It might be made up but the individual players War add up to how many game the teams win plus 47.

It is most definitely made up.

Then why do the individual players on the team add up to team wins Plus 47? I set out in my research of what WAR was to prove it wrong. Made up, like you say. My research proved me wrong. Invest some time in it. You might change your mind. Maybe not.

No idea what that means. I just know that it isn't a real statistic that can be measured. Unfortunately today's game is so infatuated with it, you see more about WAR than actual production stats.
Don't need WAR to tell me who the good players are. Ive watched baseball long enough to be able to see that for myself.

You have no idea what that means? Do you know what war is and how it works? I didn’t so I looked it up. I found out I didn’t understand it. I educated myself.
It’s not a coincidence that player WARS add up to team wins. Look it up.
War is based on production and translated into wins. Look it up.

[cosmo.kramer]

As bad as VS2 hit, he still had a 2.2 War.
Not far off from perennial All Star Donovan’s 2.7.

Great example to why WAR is a complete joke. Means absolutely nothing. Made up stat. Thanks for sharing!

Is it made up? I never put much into it until I read a post and decided to research. It might be made up but the individual players War add up to how many game the teams win plus 47.

It is most definitely made up.

Every stat is made up.

Batting average arbitrarily treats all hits the same, even though they're not.

Slugging percentage arbitrarily weights home runs as 4x, triples as 3x, doubles as 2x, and singles as 1x, even though those multipliers aren't right.

On base percentage arbitrarily treats hits the same as walks and hbp, even though they're not.

Fielding percentage arbitrarily counts every kind of error as identical, even though they're not.

WAR simply breaks down a player's contributions (bat, baserunning, defense) using more precise weights for the value of each event, rather than picking arbitrary weights.

But I do agree that many people get too attached to WAR. It's not perfect