STLtoday.com

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:54 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:48 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:45 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:33 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:21 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:11 am

3dender wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:04 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Back to the OP, the entire problem with trying to be a "light" version of the big spenders is that a mid market team has no room for ANY errors, let alone the multiple errors that Mo committed in his last decade. The big market teams can absorb those errors and just spend more money, but they are crippling for a team like the Cards.

That's why to be successful smaller markets have to build a team cheaply that can compete even without those big contracts, which is what TB, Cleveland, and lately Milwaukee have been able to do consistently.

Imagine Milwaukee or Cleveland in this year's playoffs if they had had Alonso at 1B or Bregman at 3B, or Blake Snell or Max Fried. All mattmitch is saying is that's what the Cards should aspire to be.

He says it every hour on the hour. Most of us don't want to be "light big spenders". We realize the pile of bad decision making has led to a period where the farm needed attention. I, and many others, reject the notion that no other moves should be considered in the name of tanking. When opportunity knocks, and if it does not entail mortgaging the future, then it should at least be considered.

I'd also add that the TB, Milwaukee, Cleveland model has netter zero world series titles, which is the primary justification those like him use for the teardown/rebuild. We need our own plan...not theirs.

What annoys me with this poster is his insistence on writing these narratives telling us how we think.

The Cleveland, TB model lives off of under 2mil attendance. Mil is well under the 3.2-3.5 attendance afforded to BDW for 25yr. Fine if you want to emulate their development model but completely disregarding the STL Revenue is asinine. If $$$ isn’t spent on ML payroll FANS WILL NOT RETURN

Again - no one is advocating them not return to spending $170, $180, etc. million at some point.

But it's moot for them to commit that money right now.

It isn’t Moot.

It's moot. Same thought from other thread:

They aren't getting to being a truly competitive team from where they are by spending another $80 million.

Spending $80-$90 million from where they will be after subtracting Gray, Contreras, Arenado, Donovan, Helsley, Mikolas, Matz, Maton, Fedde, etc. only gets them back to mediocre. It gets them back to where they have been - an 85, 86, maybe 87 win team that wants to just sneak into the playoffs and hope for the best.

And the ultimate problem is spending $25 million in 2026 on another SP, $25 million in 2026 on another bat, etc. won't just be spending $25 million in 2026. It will be signing a SP for 5 yrs./$125 million or a bat for 6 yrs./$150 million. And, in a few years, when the rest of the roster IS ready to compete again, those contracts will likely be "underwater" - another Nolan Arenado - that keeps them from putting a better team on the field in 2028, 2029, etc.

You mean to tell me that as good as y’all say Bloom is….he can’t sign or trade for a 25mil, 25mil, 20mil, and 15mil players who would help this team win in ‘26. Allocate that $$ as you wish 3-5 players, half a lineup. You must have ZERO regard for the ability of Winn, JJ, Herrera, Burly, Gorman, LIbby, McGreevy, MAY. You must think the current starting talent is incapable of winning 50 next season???

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:29 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:19 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 05:20 am Based on a lot of recent threads, there continues to be the CT philosophical divide which revolves around the notion that the Cardinals not only have to win, they have to win "the right way."

We know the Cardinals are a middle market team. They aren't the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, etc. on one end. Nor are they the Rays, Pirates, As, etc. on the other.

I think this is partially where we are not aligned. I think the Cardinals are now a small market team which is why they have to behave like one.

I will defer that question until we see what they do after they have rebuilt the foundation of young, cost controlled players.

Like other teams (Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia), I think they are backing off on spending, but will renew spending - to at least some higher level - when they think the rebuild is complete.

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:55 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:51 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:40 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:38 am Do some research before you place Cards at bottom of Revenue pile and expect them behave like the bottom
2025 MLB Revenue CNBC

Mets 496mil
Braves 476
Rangers 446
Angels 398
12. Cards 395
Mariners 383
Jays 386
….
….
21.Mil 337
25. Clev336
27. Pitts 329
29. Rays 304

Stop with your excuses and nonsense. Cards sit at 12 where they’ve been for at or near for the last 25yrs. The Braves, Rangers, Angels, Mariners, Jays are more than able to spend on FA and not act the bottom quartile where Mil, Cleve, Pitts, Ray live.

Again:

...a "heavy" version of Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, etc. - with an emphasis on a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

Do you have a very good reason BDW can’t spend $$ this offseason for ‘26 other than he doesn’t want to???? He just dumped 80-90mil and spent 13
Him keeping his MLB payroll $$$ in his pocket helps the Drafting??? Helps player dev??? Walk and chew gun at same time

Yes:

And the ultimate problem is spending $25 million in 2026 on another SP, $25 million in 2026 on another bat, etc. won't just be spending $25 million in 2026. It will be signing a SP for 5 yrs./$125 million or a bat for 6 yrs./$150 million. And, in a few years, when the rest of the roster IS ready to compete again, those contracts will likely be "underwater" - another Nolan Arenado - that keeps them from putting a better team on the field in 2028, 2029, etc.

Don't commit this offseason to the contracts that are going to be your next "Nolan Arenado"s in 2028, 2029, 2030.

You have no idea the player, contract or their viability in a couple seasons. You trend to the extreme

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:29 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:19 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 05:20 am Based on a lot of recent threads, there continues to be the CT philosophical divide which revolves around the notion that the Cardinals not only have to win, they have to win "the right way."

We know the Cardinals are a middle market team. They aren't the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, etc. on one end. Nor are they the Rays, Pirates, As, etc. on the other.

I think this is partially where we are not aligned. I think the Cardinals are now a small market team which is why they have to behave like one.

I will defer that question until we see what they do after they have rebuilt the foundation of young, cost controlled players.

Like other teams (Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia), I think they are backing off on spending, but will renew spending - to at least some higher level - when they think the rebuild is complete.

#5 US Metro - Houston
#8 US Metro - Philadelphia
#9 US Metro - Atlanta

#20 US Metro - St Louis

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am Prior to BDWJr/Mo destroying the franchise, the Cardinals drew 3+M every season for decades, had a strong local TV package ($1B) before the Bally blowup and had revenues that made them a lot closer to being a "large" market team than a "mid" market team.

But times have changed thanks to Dewitt/Mo's mismanagement, crashing attendance and the local TV deal (again) blowing up.

Before the collapse Dewitt could've afford to sign any FA he wanted not in the Ohtani/Soto $700M range but he choose not to.

Now they have no choice but to go Back-to-the-Future, reviving the Dewitt/J. Luhnow model that produced a steady stream of in house talent.

Fortunately Dewitt fired Mo (okay, gave him the option of retiring on his own terms) and brought in a super smart, young executive in C. Bloom who's strengths match that of Luhnow.

JMO but it's NOT going to take three, four years to re-build and compete again first in the NLC, then for a deep playoff run and finally another WS title.

Bloom is already off to fast start acquiring multiple young arms, not putting his eggs all in one basket w/the hope his strong minor league development team led by R. Cerfolio can develop a top flight starter or two!

100% the right move.

S. Gray, WillyC and eventually Donny, JoJo and NADO don't fit the "PLAN" (Donny being the exception but he'll be a FA in two yrs and no way Dewitt pays him what he'll command on the open market) so trading them for, YES, as many lotto ticket prospects (some a higher grade than others) is 100% the right move.

It's my opinion the 2026 team is going to be better than the 2025 team, more along the lines of the 2024 team meaning they could stay in WC contention a lot longer than some think making for more than a throw-away, re-build season.

So put me in the "Right thing to do camp" matt.

I don't like it's come to this (HATE IT).

It never should've happen but Dewitt got fat & lazy and Mo, well he's reeked as a POBO for a long time.

Had Dewitt fired Mo years ago he'd still be drawing 3+M and we wouldn't have had to go through this re-build.

So there it is.

Happy Holidays to all.

JMO

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:05 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am Prior to BDWJr/Mo destroying the franchise, the Cardinals drew 3+M every season for decades, had a strong local TV package ($1B) before the Bally blowup and had revenues that made them a lot closer to being a "large" market team than a "mid" market team.

But times have changed thanks to Dewitt/Mo's mismanagement, crashing attendance and the local TV deal (again) blowing up.

Before the collapse Dewitt could've afford to sign any FA he wanted not in the Ohtani/Soto $700M range but he choose not to.

Now they have no choice but to go Back-to-the-Future, reviving the Dewitt/J. Luhnow model that produced a steady stream of in house talent.

Fortunately Dewitt fired Mo (okay, gave him the option of retiring on his own terms) and brought in a super smart, young executive in C. Bloom who's strengths match that of Luhnow.

JMO but it's NOT going to take three, four years to re-build and compete again first in the NLC, then for a deep playoff run and finally another WS title.

Bloom is already off to fast start acquiring multiple young arms, not putting his eggs all in one basket w/the hope his strong minor league development team led by R. Cerfolio can develop a top flight starter or two!

100% the right move.

S. Gray, WillyC and eventually Donny, JoJo and NADO don't fit the "PLAN" (Donny being the exception but he'll be a FA in two yrs and no way Dewitt pays him what he'll command on the open market) so trading them for, YES, as many lotto ticket prospects (some a higher grade than others) is 100% the right move.

It's my opinion the 2026 team is going to be better than the 2025 team, more along the lines of the 2024 team meaning they could stay in WC contention a lot longer than some think making for more than a throw-away, re-build season.

So put me in the "Right thing to do camp" matt.

I don't like it's come to this (HATE IT).

It never should've happen but Dewitt got fat & lazy and Mo, well he's reeked as a POBO for a long time.

Had Dewitt fired Mo years ago he'd still be drawing 3+M and we wouldn't have had to go through this re-build.

So there it is.

Happy Holidays to all.

JMO

2025 Revenue…..same as where they’ve always been. The group around them are doing just fine.
Mets 496mil
Braves 476
Rangers 446
Angels 398
12. Cards 395
Mariners 383
Jays 386
….
….
21.Mil 337
25. Clev336
27. Pitts 329
29. Rays 304

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:37 am

WeeVikes wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:33 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:30 am

WeeVikes wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:29 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:41 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 07:32 am Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

I think you just found the middle ground of this debate. Had the Cardinals not made those mistakes they’d still need to figure out how to efficiently compete against the huge markets, but they wouldn’t have to dig out of the hole in which the find themselves. However, they are in that hole, so the reconstruction process is now necessary. I think there is plenty of truth to go around on both sides of this.

Agreed, especially on your last statement. But that won't stop the OP from telling us how the opposition REALLY thinks.

Perhaps not. Hopefully everyone will get the message you’re communicating with an open mind. This is a big job.

You make my point. Good write. Most turn downs in an org are temporary like a Missouri mud puddle. Easy to get in, easy to get out.

We got ourselves into a texas sized mud hole. Much larger. Much deeper. The normal template for such downturns was not enough. We are now building that new template.

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:05 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am Prior to BDWJr/Mo destroying the franchise, the Cardinals drew 3+M every season for decades, had a strong local TV package ($1B) before the Bally blowup and had revenues that made them a lot closer to being a "large" market team than a "mid" market team.

But times have changed thanks to Dewitt/Mo's mismanagement, crashing attendance and the local TV deal (again) blowing up.

Before the collapse Dewitt could've afford to sign any FA he wanted not in the Ohtani/Soto $700M range but he choose not to.

Now they have no choice but to go Back-to-the-Future, reviving the Dewitt/J. Luhnow model that produced a steady stream of in house talent.

Fortunately Dewitt fired Mo (okay, gave him the option of retiring on his own terms) and brought in a super smart, young executive in C. Bloom who's strengths match that of Luhnow.

JMO but it's NOT going to take three, four years to re-build and compete again first in the NLC, then for a deep playoff run and finally another WS title.

Bloom is already off to fast start acquiring multiple young arms, not putting his eggs all in one basket w/the hope his strong minor league development team led by R. Cerfolio can develop a top flight starter or two!

100% the right move.

S. Gray, WillyC and eventually Donny, JoJo and NADO don't fit the "PLAN" (Donny being the exception but he'll be a FA in two yrs and no way Dewitt pays him what he'll command on the open market) so trading them for, YES, as many lotto ticket prospects (some a higher grade than others) is 100% the right move.

It's my opinion the 2026 team is going to be better than the 2025 team, more along the lines of the 2024 team meaning they could stay in WC contention a lot longer than some think making for more than a throw-away, re-build season.

So put me in the "Right thing to do camp" matt.

I don't like it's come to this (HATE IT).

It never should've happen but Dewitt got fat & lazy and Mo, well he's reeked as a POBO for a long time.

Had Dewitt fired Mo years ago he'd still be drawing 3+M and we wouldn't have had to go through this re-build.

So there it is.

Happy Holidays to all.

JMO

2025 Revenue…..same as where they’ve always been. The group around them are doing just fine.
Mets 496mil
Braves 476
Rangers 446
Angels 398
12. Cards 395
Mariners 383
Jays 386
….
….
21.Mil 337
25. Clev336
27. Pitts 329
29. Rays 304

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:40 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:38 am Do some research before you place Cards at bottom of Revenue pile and expect them behave like the bottom
2025 MLB Revenue CNBC

Mets 496mil
Braves 476
Rangers 446
Angels 398
12. Cards 395
Mariners 383
Jays 386
….
….
21.Mil 337
25. Clev336
27. Pitts 329
29. Rays 304

Stop with your excuses and nonsense. Cards sit at 12 where they’ve been for at or near for the last 25yrs. The Braves, Rangers, Angels, Mariners, Jays are more than able to spend on FA and not act the bottom quartile where Mil, Cleve, Pitts, Ray live.

Again:

...a "heavy" version of Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, etc. - with an emphasis on a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

Do you have a very good reason BDW can’t spend $$ this offseason for ‘26 other than he doesn’t want to???? He just dumped 80-90mil and spent 13
Him keeping his MLB payroll $$$ in his pocket helps the Drafting??? Helps player dev??? Walk and chew gun at same time

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:29 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:19 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 05:20 am Based on a lot of recent threads, there continues to be the CT philosophical divide which revolves around the notion that the Cardinals not only have to win, they have to win "the right way."

We know the Cardinals are a middle market team. They aren't the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, etc. on one end. Nor are they the Rays, Pirates, As, etc. on the other.

I think this is partially where we are not aligned. I think the Cardinals are now a small market team which is why they have to behave like one.

I will defer that question until we see what they do after they have rebuilt the foundation of young, cost controlled players.

Like other teams (Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia), I think they are backing off on spending, but will renew spending - to at least some higher level - when they think the rebuild is complete.

#5 US Metro - Houston
#8 US Metro - Philadelphia
#9 US Metro - Atlanta

#20 US Metro - St Louis

I didn't say they would spend to those teams' levels. I said, "but will renew spending - to at least some higher level".

Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia - even with THEIR resources - all dropped to between 20th and 30th in MLB payroll as part of their rebuilds - and then bounced back.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:23 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:29 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:19 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 05:20 am Based on a lot of recent threads, there continues to be the CT philosophical divide which revolves around the notion that the Cardinals not only have to win, they have to win "the right way."

We know the Cardinals are a middle market team. They aren't the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, etc. on one end. Nor are they the Rays, Pirates, As, etc. on the other.

I think this is partially where we are not aligned. I think the Cardinals are now a small market team which is why they have to behave like one.

I will defer that question until we see what they do after they have rebuilt the foundation of young, cost controlled players.

Like other teams (Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia), I think they are backing off on spending, but will renew spending - to at least some higher level - when they think the rebuild is complete.

#5 US Metro - Houston
#8 US Metro - Philadelphia
#9 US Metro - Atlanta

#20 US Metro - St Louis

I didn't say they would spend to those teams' levels. I said, "but will renew spending - to at least some higher level".

Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia - even with THEIR resources - all dropped to between 20th and 30th in MLB payroll as part of their rebuilds - and then bounced back.

1. It's not a rebuild. They're resetting to a small market model
2. Those teams could spend because of their revenue. The Cardinals won't have the revenue. They have no cable deal and their market isn't worth all that much.

WeeVikes wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:19 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:40 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:38 am Do some research before you place Cards at bottom of Revenue pile and expect them behave like the bottom
2025 MLB Revenue CNBC

Mets 496mil
Braves 476
Rangers 446
Angels 398
12. Cards 395
Mariners 383
Jays 386
….
….
21.Mil 337
25. Clev336
27. Pitts 329
29. Rays 304

Stop with your excuses and nonsense. Cards sit at 12 where they’ve been for at or near for the last 25yrs. The Braves, Rangers, Angels, Mariners, Jays are more than able to spend on FA and not act the bottom quartile where Mil, Cleve, Pitts, Ray live.

Again:

...a "heavy" version of Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, etc. - with an emphasis on a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

Do you have a very good reason BDW can’t spend $$ this offseason for ‘26 other than he doesn’t want to???? He just dumped 80-90mil and spent 13
Him keeping his MLB payroll $$$ in his pocket helps the Drafting??? Helps player dev??? Walk and chew gun at same time

What is your thought on the timing of when the high-priced players are brought on? My concern would be with another Goldie & Arenado situation where they may have been the right guys but at the wrong time. I absolutely want the Cardinals to pursue the stud free-agents they can reasonably afford, but also don’t want some guy here for 10 years, $1,000,000,000 dollars (yes, I’m being hyperbolic) if it screws with the ability to build a team, not just bring in a “name”. The Cardinals did not manage this well up until now. I hope the current approach addresses this.

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:25 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:23 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 09:04 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:58 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:29 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 08:19 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2025 05:20 am Based on a lot of recent threads, there continues to be the CT philosophical divide which revolves around the notion that the Cardinals not only have to win, they have to win "the right way."

We know the Cardinals are a middle market team. They aren't the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, etc. on one end. Nor are they the Rays, Pirates, As, etc. on the other.

I think this is partially where we are not aligned. I think the Cardinals are now a small market team which is why they have to behave like one.

I will defer that question until we see what they do after they have rebuilt the foundation of young, cost controlled players.

Like other teams (Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia), I think they are backing off on spending, but will renew spending - to at least some higher level - when they think the rebuild is complete.

#5 US Metro - Houston
#8 US Metro - Philadelphia
#9 US Metro - Atlanta

#20 US Metro - St Louis

I didn't say they would spend to those teams' levels. I said, "but will renew spending - to at least some higher level".

Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia - even with THEIR resources - all dropped to between 20th and 30th in MLB payroll as part of their rebuilds - and then bounced back.

1. It's not a rebuild. They're resetting to a small market model
2. Those teams could spend because of their revenue. The Cardinals won't have the revenue. They have no cable deal and their market isn't worth all that much.

Mets 496mil
Braves 476
Rangers 446
Angels 398
12. Cards 395
Mariners 383
Jays 386
….