Question for those not wanting to Rebuild

[mattmitchl44]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

When we think of the last 20 years and needing to rebuild, many think we are trying to find the next Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Holliday, Molina, Waino, Chris Carpenter, etc. The next BIG horses.

While this is true, I'm just as much looking forward to a pipeline that produces the next Craig, Marp, Donovan, Freese, Skip, Wacha, CMart, Jay, even Pham, Seigrist, Motte, etc. Supporting players who are ready for primetime.

I also look forward to Bloom running an organization where guys like Adams, Grichuk, etc. are treated like nice supporting players and not the next BIG guys.

Lastly, I personally think people that are treating this rebuild as a big deal, need to chill. This will be a relatively soft rebuild, IMO.

I would say - you can never count on finding another an almost 10 WAR Pujols who you can sign early to an extension.

But if you can develop a 5 WAR Wetherholt and a 5 WAR Doyle and lock them up, that's something you can then build around.

[ScotchMIrish]

We are getting revenue sharing. There is no choice but to rebuild. They apparently can't afford to re-sign Donovan and are going to trade him.

The Cardinals as we knew them are over. Revenue sharing teams all do one thing. Rebuild. Constantly. Trade your best players and rebuild.

[Stlcardsblues]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

They went almost two decades as a perennial contender and won two championships while making the world series 4 times and the NLCS also. I'll take that approach over a chance to "be good" every 3 or 4 years sandwiched by that "mediocrity" you speak of. LOL

[mattmitchl44]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

They went almost two decades as a perennial contender and won two championships while making the world series 4 times and the NLCS also. I'll take that approach over a chance to "be good" every 3 or 4 years sandwiched by that "mediocrity" you speak of. LOL

See above:

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

MLB 2025 is very different, in many ways, than MLB in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s.

[Stlcardsblues]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

[mattmitchl44]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

I *think* some people want to believe that, instead of relying on young, cost controlled players that the team develops, they can just go back to what they believe Jocketty did - successfully mining "cheap" FAs on a consistent basis to find "value" for the ML roster. They want that to be the "quick fix" that the Cardinals use to immediately be successful again rather than the patient approach to building the roster's core of young players over the next 2-3 years.

The problem with this is, since the "Moneyball era", every team - and in particular all of the small and mid market teams - have had to invest in getting a lot better at identifying and capitalizing on "market inefficiencies" and finding "overlook" FAs they can sign cheaply and get "value" from.

So, today, you should expect it to be much harder for a team like the Cardinals to consistently sign "cheap" FAs who are going to regularly overperform what you are paying them. It's much harder today for any team to "beat the market" consistently when signing FAs. You can't build a roster strategy based on that expectation.

[desertrat23]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

15 years ago. No more living in the past.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

They went almost two decades as a perennial contender and won two championships while making the world series 4 times and the NLCS also. I'll take that approach over a chance to "be good" every 3 or 4 years sandwiched by that "mediocrity" you speak of. LOL

And how did they accomplish all that? By drafting and developing, which allowed them to supplement those homegrown players with more established players that they traded for or signed. They were also very good at identifying “bargain bin,” or whatever you want to call it, talent, that they could acquire on the cheap, but who would thrive under the team’s philosophy.

And let’s be honest….the main reason they had that success is because they (Mo, actually) drafted Albert Pujols, who they then (very wisely) locked up at a very young age. While that was the largest contract of its time then, he was still incredibly affordable, which gave them the flexibility to keep their payroll relatively low so that they could spend money and take on contracts when needed. Yadi Molina is another guy that I shouldn’t even have to mention.

But you also had a lot of their guys who they drafted and developed. JD Drew was one. Eli Marrero another. They got a little pricey, so they traded him for lesser players (Marquis and King), as well as a valuable prospect. And we all know how the prospect they acquired would go on to contribute to the success of the team over the next 15 years or so. But even guys like King and Marquis did a lot to solidify those teams as affordable role players. Placido Polanco and Bud Smith are a couple of other homegrown players that they were able to use in order to acquire Scott Rosen, when they were at a point that they could add a star to put them over the top. Similarly, Adam Kennedy was another young, homegrown player, that they were able to trade for a guy like Jim Edmonds. Matt Morris was a homegrown talent that was solid presence in the rotation for years and had some ace-like years with the team. Matt Carpenter was a guy that carried the team after Pujols left. We don’t win a WS in 2011 without David Freese or Jaime Garcia. One was drafted and developed, the other was a young, unproven player that we got for trading a beloved veteran in Jim Edmonds. Allen Craig , Skip Schumaker, Lance Lynn, Jon Jones, Michael Wacha, and Daniel Descalso were all solid players that kept as at a great base to contend for as many years as we did.

But yea, basically all the success we had for the last 30 years was due to drafting and developing, along with top third to top 10 payroll flexibility. The same thing they’re trying to get back to. And that success didn’t happen overnight. They had some very bad years in the 90s. They also had some mini rebuilds after the 2006 World Series, and also in the mid 2010s.

[dugoutrex]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

you are asking the wrong question - trading Gray reeks of a tank job - I will not pay to go see a tank

[AZ_Cardsfan]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

you are asking the wrong question - trading Gray reeks of a tank job - I will not pay to go see a tank

And that is your option. The team is a business which many forget. Their business relies on fans spending money on tickets and swag and viewers on TV. If the product isn't appealing their revenue will drop. Such as you not watching what you deem a "tank job". And many will join you.

Perhaps in the long run the team is resetting to present a better quality product than they can with the former out of date farm system. And the former out of date roster management. Improved scouting, drafting, development all cost money and from what I've read they let that slide and we see the results lately. Maybe the improvements aren't obvious at first but lets hope there are there.

I do not call it a tank job. I do call it a rebuild and if the money wasn't there to both add more spending at the ML level and fix the farm then I'm OK with 1-2 years rebuild the farm. Without it STL can not compete on a regular basis.

I mean let's be honest. STL isn't a large market team and their revenues are far less than NY/LA/CHI. The only long term way to be a contender with the large money teams is if a regular stream of ML regulars is provided at minimum cost.

STL is also not a small market PIT/TB market. Once they have a functional farm again they do have enough revenues (when they are providing a good team and fans return) to fill in missing pieces and get into the playoffs with enough talent to not be swept aside like a gnat by the 100 win talent teams.

No one looks forward to watching STL win in the low 70s next year. But I think most of us would like to see a return to relevance in the playoffs and if that's what it takes I'm for it. Up to you if you watch them during the rebuild year(s).

BTW if this doesn't prove fruitful and STL a division contender at least by 2028 season I'll also be at their HQ with a torch or pitchfork whichever is fashionable today.

[dugoutrex]

I'll pay to watch again - when the tank is over!

[CorneliusWolfe]

We are getting revenue sharing. There is no choice but to rebuild. They apparently can't afford to re-sign Donovan and are going to trade him.

The Cardinals as we knew them are over. Revenue sharing teams all do one thing. Rebuild. Constantly. Trade your best players and rebuild.

Well stated. And the front office (donkey) kissers eat it up and even cite those other [shirt]ty non-championship-winning teams as shining examples in their arguments.

[renostl]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

I *think* some people want to believe that, instead of relying on young, cost controlled players that the team develops, they can just go back to what they believe Jocketty did - successfully mining "cheap" FAs on a consistent basis to find "value" for the ML roster. They want that to be the "quick fix" that the Cardinals use to immediately be successful again rather than the patient approach to building the roster's core of young players over the next 2-3 years.

The problem with this is, since the "Moneyball era", every team - and in particular all of the small and mid market teams - have had to invest in getting a lot better at identifying and capitalizing on "market inefficiencies" and finding "overlook" FAs they can sign cheaply and get "value" from.

So, today, you should expect it to be much harder for a team like the Cardinals to consistently sign "cheap" FAs who are going to regularly overperform what you are paying them. It's much harder today for any team to "beat the market" consistently when signing FAs. You can't build a roster strategy based on that expectation.

True, nobody gets it right always.

There are still only X jobs in the game. IF we are talking FA, "cheap" FA in this
case, a portion of it is to remain a destination for FA. Improvements in a roster can be done
without becoming a hindrance to the future. Both can coexist and more so if we are
eliminating the high AAV and term as suggested here.

POV's here sometimes discount winning teams win they aren't a favorite to when it all.
It is fair to do but there are some side effects to that.

Winning the division, making playoff runs, playing in front of fuller stadiums will
always beat the teams that don't. IF the talk of the day Donovan was on the open market
the Cards would be good to be in on him if needed or be seeking a comparative player.
They'd have an infinitely better chance in the St. Louis environment of 2011 than 2025.

[juan good eye]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

Not against the rebuild but I want a competitive team by 2027 (if no strike) or 2028. Some of these trades need to get some mlb ready players. I have to believe the value is there. I struggle with Donovan trade but not against it.

My point to be competitive in 2028 you need core players playing this year or next.

Why chance interfering with the rebuild process and ultimately the overall success with an ultimatum to be “competitive” by 2028?