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mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 12:07 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 11:58 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 11:39 am Appreciate the OP. The dissenters have been on a real heater lately.

Dissenters have an honest point though. Fans hate losing and they should. And the vast majority of us have been paying fans long enough to earn the right to complain when the org doesn't even put MLB talent on the field but raises MLB prices (and keeps a losing manager who can't develop the young talent that has flopped under his tutulidge).

So there will be years more of honest complaining.

You are welcome to dissent. But you should understand what you are dissenting in favor of.

You're dissenting if favor of basically the same, failed "get more established ML players" philosophy that they've been implementing for the last 5-10 years. You're just hoping that, somehow, Bloom could do that so much better than Mozeliak to make an appreciable difference.

As I note here, however:

viewtopic.php?t=1517913

it's hard to translate "being smarter", even if you are smarter, into a substantial edge if you are focusing on established ML players. There is more of an edge to be gained if your "being smarter" is focused on leveraging better prospect identification, acquisition, and development.

I never said it was easy - that’s Melville. But I still except our ownership to figure that out sooner not later. And be willing to spend the $ now and in the future. Meanwhile the complaining here Will continue and fans won’t buy many tickets.

And we also don’t seem truly committed to elite prospect development until we show we can continue to develop prospects that have reached the major leagues. And Oli has shown he’s not that guy. Major complaint that Bloom could have fixed.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 13:11 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 12:07 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 11:58 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 11:39 am Appreciate the OP. The dissenters have been on a real heater lately.

Dissenters have an honest point though. Fans hate losing and they should. And the vast majority of us have been paying fans long enough to earn the right to complain when the org doesn't even put MLB talent on the field but raises MLB prices (and keeps a losing manager who can't develop the young talent that has flopped under his tutulidge).

So there will be years more of honest complaining.

You are welcome to dissent. But you should understand what you are dissenting in favor of.

You're dissenting if favor of basically the same, failed "get more established ML players" philosophy that they've been implementing for the last 5-10 years. You're just hoping that, somehow, Bloom could do that so much better than Mozeliak to make an appreciable difference.

As I note here, however:

viewtopic.php?t=1517913

it's hard to translate "being smarter", even if you are smarter, into a substantial edge if you are focusing on established ML players. There is more of an edge to be gained if your "being smarter" is focused on leveraging better prospect identification, acquisition, and development.

I never said it was easy - that’s Melville. But I still except our ownership to figure that out sooner not later. And be willing to spend the $ now and in the future. Meanwhile the complaining here Will continue and fans won’t buy many tickets.

And we also don’t seem truly committed to elite prospect development until we show we can continue to develop prospects that have reached the major leagues. And Oli has shown he’s not that guy. Major complaint that Bloom could have fixed.

Fully agree that was Bloom's first massive blunder.
Then again, DeWitt likely prevented that from happening.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 10:01 am

HorseTrader wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:17 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:10 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 06:25 am There continues to be a contingent on CT who wants to misrepresent what those of us who support the Cardinals current direction are saying. This contingent repeatedly tries to say that we who support the direction categorically "don't want the Cardinals to spend money."

I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.

What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs. Even if they held on to Gray, Contreras, Donovan, etc. and added like a Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease on 5+ year deals, they wouldn't have enough talent to really challenge the best teams in the NL in 2026. Committing to more guys now on long, expensive contracts who are likely to turn into your next "Nolan Arenados" in 3, 4, 5 years isn't going to help you down the road either.

The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.

So their spending money now should be directed toward either gathering more prospects immediately (from trades of Gray, Arenado, Contreras) or gathering more prospects later by planning to deal cheap FAs signed now for prospects during the 2026 season.

A lot of us here want instant gratification.
I do.
I want that.
We've been in a funk for 3 or so years now and your prescription just adds to the funk.
The funk will stink so bad in another 3 years, the brand will become stale.
Nobody will want to watch the Cards play.
Irrelevancy.

,
Some of us will continue to follow the team, win or lose. You are welcome to follow another team.

What?

Not that I agree with the instant gratification demand, but...

If every Cardinal fan had this attitude, the team would never win anything because DeWitt wouldn't spend more than a minimal amount and the Cardinals would become the Pirates west.

Would you stick with your wife if she cheated with your best friend? Would you keep your dog if he bit you 9-month old on the face and the kid had to have surgery? Twice?

Loyalty is a good thing, but blind loyalty is ruinous.

I'm 72 and been following the team since the early 60s. I've seen the highs and the lows. If you don't want to stay through the lows, that's fine. I'll still be here

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 11:29 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 11:18 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 09:55 am

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 09:26 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 08:45 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:43 am If the right elite talent is signed now or 5 yrs years from now what's the difference?

Again, see Nolan Arenado.

When the Cardinals acquired him five years ago, he was 30 (right about the same age as "elite talent" that you might sign as an FA now) and was an "elite talent" for the Cardinals for a couple of years.

Then he was an OK to good talent for a couple of years.

Then last year he as not a good talent.

So the "elite talent" you sign today at age 30, 31, 32, etc. probably won't be "elite talent" 3, 4, 5 yrs. from now, but you'll still be paying them "elite talent" money.

If I want to sign someone to be an "elite talent" in 2030, it's better to sign them in 2029 or 2030 at age 30 than in 2026 at age 30.

Why does your side think every free agent we sign would be Nolan Arenado 2.0 and every prospect we acquire will be Bobby Witt Jr. 2.0?

I certainly have never said I expect every prospect to be Witt. I've even said, quite clearly, that you expect a percentage of your prospects to not work out. But you have to obtain and develop enough prospects that, even with the losses due to guys not working out, you are still delivering the absolutely necessary critical mass of young talent to your ML team. The fact that all prospects do not work out requires you to obtain and develop MORE prospects, to ensure that you have enough succeed, not fewer.

And I know what a critical mass of young talent looks like, because it looks like this:

As I've noted before, they basically need to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year. If you divide the roster up into 15 high value (5 SPs, 8 starting position players, 1 DH, 1 closer) spots and 11 lower value (7 other RPs, 4 bench players) spots, the steady state roster needs to look something like:

- 3 rookies (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 2nd year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 3rd year players (2 in lower value spots; 1 in a high value spot) making close to the ML minimum (total ~$3 million)
- 3 ARB-1 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $2.5 million (total ~$7.5 million)
- 3 ARB-2 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $5 million (total ~$15 million)
- 3 ARB-3 year players (1 in a lower value spot; 2 in high value spots) averaging maybe $7.5 million (total ~$22.5 million)
- 8 full market value veterans (3 in lower value spots; 5 in high value spots) taking up a total of ~$120 million in payroll

But to successfully matriculate three prospects to the majors every year, you probably need to have 5 or 6 prospects who you think may be "ML ready" because not all will actually be ready to successfully make the jump.

And why do I think FA signings are very likely to be on a path like Arenado? Because every FA that you sign is an "auction" where you have to be willing to outbid every other team in on that FA. When you have to do that, it biases the outcome toward you - as the "outlier" who was willing to pay the most - being more likely to have ultimately overpaid for that FA over the life of their contract. And, as we know how players generally age, if you are overpaying, you are most likely going to be overpaying in the latter years when they are further past their prime - just like Arenado.

What you outline is an oversimplified process. I’m sure Mo presented a more comprehensive plan than that. If that’s all it takes to build a winner, why doesn’t everyone do it?

What I outline is a framework that has to be very close to the truth. There is little way to fill out a successful 26 man roster for ~$175 million that can deviate much from that.

And it's hard to do. You have to have an organization that is really smart, understands cutting edge talent identification, acquisition, and development, etc. And you have to have an owner who balances short and long term objectives.

The Cardinals have not had anything of that. Hopefully they do now.

A commitment to winning, not maximizing profits is what the “spender crowd” desires. We want the team to do everything they can to win as soon as they can without mortgaging the by trading our best prospects for aging vets.

There is however a price to pay for bad decision making and that price is occasional periods of inflated payroll from free agency. That is, if a team is committed to pursuing all avenues to field a good product. This team is not. They’re going the cheap prospect only route.

Will they do it like the Brewers or like the Pirates? Even the Brewers gold standard way has not been enough to win, or even make it to the World Series.

Another case for signing some talent…all those great prospects need to know jobs are just not being handed out like water around here. Too many every day players that didn’t earn their way.

And, yes, there is a price to pay for the bad approach to roster management the Cardinals have been pursuing for the last 5-10 years, the constant band aiding of the ML roster without sufficient dedication to organizational development.

The price is needing to go through 2 or 3 years of a thorough rebuild like the Cardinals are starting on now.

Wasn’t part of that mismanagement failure on the draft/developmental side too? They’ve been preaching internal development since after 2011 WS and have gotten nothing out of it. Do you think Mo was just that stupid and Bloom is such a genius that the same exact plan will NOW suddenly come together? Or is it just very hard to pull off? One could argue impossible because the Brewers have been the best at it and zero WS to show for it. On the other end, there’s the poor Pirates fans who never even sniff a thrill from their team.

Hope is easy to sell though. We’ve become worse off than Cubs fans. Instead of saying “there’s always next year”, it’s always, just wait 3-4 years from now when prospect XYZ comes up. You claim collecting prospects in bulk results in a couple new stars each year. Maybe what you end up with is a bigger pile of [shirt] without enough room and playing time to identify and develop the good ones.

I won’t change your or the BDW money-savers club minds. But this thread does nothing disprove the notion the team should explore ALL avenues, to include free agency, international scouting, and yes, draft and development, Anything less is irresponsible and disrespectful to the fans and former players that made this franchise legendary. That should be the standard. Just how much losing can you stomach before losing interest? Do you go to [shirt]ty band concerts, or bad artist galleries? Attendance says it all. The fans are ready to at least try harder now.

If your plan was so simple and solid, a team wouldn’t even need a GM. Just a short to-do list to pass off from owner to manager for a quick cheap shortcut to glory.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 10:16 am

45s wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 10:14 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 09:44 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 08:50 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 08:45 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:43 am If the right elite talent is signed now or 5 yrs years from now what's the difference?

Again, see Nolan Arenado.

When the Cardinals acquired him five years ago, he was 30 (right about the same age as "elite talent" that you might sign as an FA now) and was an "elite talent" for the Cardinals for a couple of years.

Then he was an OK to good talent for a couple of years.

Then last year he as not a good talent.

So the "elite talent" you sign today at age 30, 31, 32, etc. probably won't be "elite talent" 3, 4, 5 yrs. from now, but you'll still be paying them "elite talent" money.

If I want to sign someone to be an "elite talent" in 2030, it's better to sign them in 2029 or 2030 at age 30 than in 2026 at age 30.

2 bats, 2 SP you’re in the playoffs.

Yep.
Trade for 1 of those SPs. Sign Valdez.
Sign E. Suarez and get an OF slugger.

What does that put our payroll at? (Assuming we still trade Nado)

valdez is looing for six years at 33mil per

a 37 year old pitcher making 33 mil might not be the best move

And, of course, he doesn't address how he's going to trade for a SP and maybe trade for an OF slugger without having to give away an equivalent amount of talent in the process. Is he going to trade Wetherholt and Doyle to do so?

You sign TGKS,Beiilinger,SP
You Trade Gray,Donny, Noot….forSP
Not giving up any young talent

No need to change managers yet. Bloom probably couldn't get the guy he wants with the current roster. Give him time to build a stronger team. Then he will have a higher caliber of manager applicants.

I'm more in the Melville boat.

The problem has not been spending on free agents. They just spent on the wrong free agents. Poor decision making.

The problem has not been drafting and developing. They just discarded the wrong prospects. Poor decision making.

Yes, they have lost their momemtum. However, if they start making better decisions, they can regain that momemtum.

They made good decisions and won at a .559 clip from 2000 to 2022, trailing only the Yanks .583 and Dodgers .563, and winning 4 pennants and being the NL runner-up another 6 times. They played in the NLCS in 43% of those seasons.
It took a few years of good decisions and maybe some draft luck (Pujols) to get that momemtum going.
Near the end of that period, they began making some poor decisions and eventually lost that momentum.

Baseball is not different now. Their old model still works, but they simply stopped following it.
For example, the Brewers copied the Cardinals model and have won at a .567 clip from 2018 to 2025 with even lower payrolls.
If the Cardinals had not departed from their model and stopped making intelligent long term decisions, they could still be winning year after year.

For those hoping for a long tank and rebuild and think that will make the Cardinals not "just a playoff team" but instead some sort of a guaranteed "World Series winner" for several years in a row just like the Dodgers, I think you are drinking some strange koolaid. What team has followed that model and won the World Series more than once? The 2017 Astros did the tanking jump start thing but they also hit on multiple international draft picks and simply made good decisions. Their payroll soon exceeded the St Louis range once they started winning just to keep it going but mostly Houston kept winning because they continued to make good decisions.

The winning model is judging future talent better than everyone else. If you do that, you will sign good free agents, win your trades, and draft/sign better prospects. That's where the Cards have fallen apart recently, IMHO. That's totally different than a tanking strategy.

I hate the tanking concept. However, if you aren't going to put out a team capable of making the playoffs next year, then

My prefered strategy is to sign a bunch of "quick fix" free agents and trade them for prospects at the deadline if you are "out of it". However, you should rarely be "out of it". Get in the playoffs as many times as possible and you will find yourself a WS champion now and then. This is NOT what the Cardinals have been doing; they have won 90 games 3 times in the past 10 years. As a result, the fans stopped coming and stopped watching. As a result, there is no money for free agents. Oops. Lost momentum.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:00 pm Wasn’t part of that mismanagement failure on the draft/developmental side too? They’ve been preaching internal development since after 2011 WS and have gotten nothing out of it. Do you think Mo was just that stupid and Bloom is such a genius that the same exact plan will NOW suddenly come together? Or is it just very hard to pull off? One could argue impossible because the Brewers have been the best at it and zero WS to show for it. On the other end, there’s the poor Pirates fans who never even sniff a thrill from their team.

They've already admitted than in recent years the short changed the player development side (like they should have had a pitching lab long before now, etc.) to put money into the ML team. Under Bloom they have to undo that and make their player development system top notch again. And they've specifically brough in Bloom, Cerfolio, etc. because they are expected to prioritize doing just that. And then they need to acquire more prospects for that new, top notch, player development system to work on.

And, yes, they want to be like the Brewers, but then do it BETTER by eventually being able to add more talent from outside when, at some point in the future they are operating with a $180 million payroll vs. the Brewers $100 million. Developing young talent like the Brewers, Rays, Indians, etc. is the starting point, and then the Cardinals can to it BETTER by eventually putting more payroll into the ML team AFTER they have that critical mass of young players and know what needs they actually need to fill by spending money wisely.

Hope is easy to sell though. We’ve become worse off than Cubs fans. Instead of saying “there’s always next year”, it’s always, just wait 3-4 years from now when prospect XYZ comes up. You claim collecting prospects in bulk results in a couple new stars each year. Maybe what you end up with is a bigger pile of [shirt] without enough room and playing time to identify and develop the good ones.

Maybe you do. But it's the path you have to try to make work if they are going to actually compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. They simply can't compete with against their payroll advantages without having a LOT of young, cost controlled talent.

I won’t change your or the BDW money-savers club minds. But this thread does nothing disprove the notion the team should explore ALL avenues, to include free agency, international scouting, and yes, draft and development, Anything less is irresponsible and disrespectful to the fans and former players that made this franchise legendary. That should be the standard. Just how much losing can you stomach before losing interest? Do you go to [shirt]ty band concerts, or bad artist galleries? Attendance says it all. The fans are ready to at least try harder now.

Did you not even read the OP?

I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.

What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs.

45s wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 10:14 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 09:44 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 08:50 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 08:45 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:43 am If the right elite talent is signed now or 5 yrs years from now what's the difference?

Again, see Nolan Arenado.

When the Cardinals acquired him five years ago, he was 30 (right about the same age as "elite talent" that you might sign as an FA now) and was an "elite talent" for the Cardinals for a couple of years.

Then he was an OK to good talent for a couple of years.

Then last year he as not a good talent.

So the "elite talent" you sign today at age 30, 31, 32, etc. probably won't be "elite talent" 3, 4, 5 yrs. from now, but you'll still be paying them "elite talent" money.

If I want to sign someone to be an "elite talent" in 2030, it's better to sign them in 2029 or 2030 at age 30 than in 2026 at age 30.

2 bats, 2 SP you’re in the playoffs.

Yep.
Trade for 1 of those SPs. Sign Valdez.
Sign E. Suarez and get an OF slugger.

What does that put our payroll at? (Assuming we still trade Nado)

valdez is looing for six years at 33mil per

a 37 year old pitcher making 33 mil might not be the best move

I think Sonny Gray is owed $35M THIS year.
I don't think Valdez is 37 right NOW.
Aces cost $$.
We have mucho $$$.
33M for a P in 6 years will be nothing.
Just because he's asking, doesn't mean he will get it.
There are also other aces available.


Also, could somebody please give me an estimate of payroll with the above lineup?

Smart financial transactions along with growth and development of the youth can go hand in hand. It does not have to be just one or the other. But that would require Bill to open the purse strings, which seems he is unwilling to do. Not unable, UNWILLING! 2012 Red Sox are a perfect example. Last place finish, minor league future still developing, and the next year after a few free agent aquistions, along with the youth taking the next step, and boom! 2013 World Series winner. It is about willingness to do so, and I feel that so many are drinking the koolaid "we can't walk and chew gum" at the same time. We can make a few smart free agency signings and some savy trades. We shouldn't have to be the Pirates for the next 5 or 10-or forever, years The money is certainly there, but I have serious doubts that there will ever be the willingness to spend it to make it happen. I feel most here have accepted that we have no choice but to wait for the youngsters to appear, but it certainly doesn't have to be that way or the only way. IMHO

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:35 pm

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:00 pm Wasn’t part of that mismanagement failure on the draft/developmental side too? They’ve been preaching internal development since after 2011 WS and have gotten nothing out of it. Do you think Mo was just that stupid and Bloom is such a genius that the same exact plan will NOW suddenly come together? Or is it just very hard to pull off? One could argue impossible because the Brewers have been the best at it and zero WS to show for it. On the other end, there’s the poor Pirates fans who never even sniff a thrill from their team.

They've already admitted than in recent years the short changed the player development side (like they should have had a pitching lab long before now, etc.) to put money into the ML team. Under Bloom they have to undo that and make their player development system top notch again. And they've specifically brough in Bloom, Cerfolio, etc. because they are expected to prioritize doing just that. And then they need to acquire more prospects for that new, top notch, player development system to work on.

And, yes, they want to be like the Brewers, but then do it BETTER by eventually being able to add more talent from outside when, at some point in the future they are operating with a $180 million payroll vs. the Brewers $100 million. Developing young talent like the Brewers, Rays, Indians, etc. is the starting point, and then the Cardinals can to it BETTER by eventually putting more payroll into the ML team AFTER they have that critical mass of young players and know what needs they actually need to fill by spending money wisely.

Hope is easy to sell though. We’ve become worse off than Cubs fans. Instead of saying “there’s always next year”, it’s always, just wait 3-4 years from now when prospect XYZ comes up. You claim collecting prospects in bulk results in a couple new stars each year. Maybe what you end up with is a bigger pile of [shirt] without enough room and playing time to identify and develop the good ones.

Maybe you do. But it's the path you have to try to make work if they are going to actually compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. They simply can't compete with against their payroll advantages without having a LOT of young, cost controlled talent.

I won’t change your or the BDW money-savers club minds. But this thread does nothing disprove the notion the team should explore ALL avenues, to include free agency, international scouting, and yes, draft and development, Anything less is irresponsible and disrespectful to the fans and former players that made this franchise legendary. That should be the standard. Just how much losing can you stomach before losing interest? Do you go to [shirt]ty band concerts, or bad artist galleries? Attendance says it all. The fans are ready to at least try harder now.

Did you not even read the OP?

I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.

What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs.

Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.

As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.

On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.

As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.

On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.

Thanks.

And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.

But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 15:08 pm

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 14:56 pm Addressing your last point, the concern is “eventually” never comes. There’s always some reason (like no pitching lab) as to why our last wave of prospects didn’t work out. Maybe eventually the farm pays off, the odds say we’re due…to say the least. But that shouldn’t stop the team from attacking mediocrity from all directions.

As far as your other points, we’ve said all that can be said so we’ll have to just respectfully disagree.

On another note, I must commend the way you’ve managed this thread. You took the time to acknowledge and address and respectfully debate each point from numerous replies from various posters. Many start a [shirt] storm and disappear or ignore certain points in well thought out replies of others. There are several posters who should observe and take note.

Thanks.

And, yes, pulling together the critical mass of young talent that they need to compete may take much longer to achieve than any of us would like.

But I would say - when all other paths to being really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. are impossible, the path that remains (the one I hope they are committed to staying on), no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

So you think Bloom will be able to construct a starting squad of Homegrowners???? What is the probability of that??

It seems like some of you guys intentionally miss the point of what is being said. The thread is on its fourth page and it's not even the first thread on the subject, so I doubt there is anything anyone can say that will help with the understanding.

HorseTrader wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 13:42 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 10:01 am

HorseTrader wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:17 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 07:10 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2025 06:25 am There continues to be a contingent on CT who wants to misrepresent what those of us who support the Cardinals current direction are saying. This contingent repeatedly tries to say that we who support the direction categorically "don't want the Cardinals to spend money."

I have not seen anyone who has said that the Cardinals will not eventually have to spend money in order to compete with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. The Cardinals will eventually likely have to spend back at the $170, $180 million level of ML payroll. Time will tell when/if that happens.

What those who support the Cardinals direction ARE saying is that the Cardinals don't need to prioritize spending money NOW - and in particular they should avoid committing to big 3, 4, 5, or more year contracts for significant FAs. Even if they held on to Gray, Contreras, Donovan, etc. and added like a Bo Bichette and/or Dylan Cease on 5+ year deals, they wouldn't have enough talent to really challenge the best teams in the NL in 2026. Committing to more guys now on long, expensive contracts who are likely to turn into your next "Nolan Arenados" in 3, 4, 5 years isn't going to help you down the road either.

The Cardinals probably will choose to sign some guys much more cheaply to 1 year + 1 team option year or 2 year deals - guys who are more "boom or bust" options like a Dustin May, etc. Those guys aren't being signed to "win now" in 2026. Those guys should be signed to be traded for more prospects at the 2026 trading deadline if they "boom," or cut loose after 2026 if they "bust." The Cardinals should also "spend money" now by packaging it with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. in deals in order to get better prospects back which could jump start their rebuild in 2027, 2028, etc.

So their spending money now should be directed toward either gathering more prospects immediately (from trades of Gray, Arenado, Contreras) or gathering more prospects later by planning to deal cheap FAs signed now for prospects during the 2026 season.

A lot of us here want instant gratification.
I do.
I want that.
We've been in a funk for 3 or so years now and your prescription just adds to the funk.
The funk will stink so bad in another 3 years, the brand will become stale.
Nobody will want to watch the Cards play.
Irrelevancy.

,
Some of us will continue to follow the team, win or lose. You are welcome to follow another team.

What?

Not that I agree with the instant gratification demand, but...

If every Cardinal fan had this attitude, the team would never win anything because DeWitt wouldn't spend more than a minimal amount and the Cardinals would become the Pirates west.

Would you stick with your wife if she cheated with your best friend? Would you keep your dog if he bit you 9-month old on the face and the kid had to have surgery? Twice?

Loyalty is a good thing, but blind loyalty is ruinous.

I'm 72 and been following the team since the early 60s. I've seen the highs and the lows. If you don't want to stay through the lows, that's fine. I'll still be here

You've seen 10 NL pennants and 5 WS winners. That's a WS every 6 or 7 seasons and World Series Champion almost once a decade on average.

Not too many fans of other teams can say as much.

But what if your team's new strategy was likely to reach the WS only once every 25 years, and win maybe once every fifty years?

Might those 25-year lows get harder to take?

The team hasn't won a title in fifteen seasons, and isn't likely to win one soon. With the strategy the FO has been pursuing, neither of us may live to see another Cardinal WS win.

so if the cards dont sign parts they need to contracts prior to 2027, how do you know that after not getting pieces for 2 years, that all the pieces you need will be available and wont be outbid in 2027? That is the one thing about this not spending money until after the new cba that takes risk.

And if somehow there was a ceiling cap agreed to, wouldnt it have to be implemented several years out , which makes the 2027 thing a fallacy? A 3 year contract signed this year would expire before any salary cap actually got implemented. Its just pocketing the money. Just as if they they somehow dump the NTC guys this year and save them another 30+ the next two years, its like no one adds that money into higher expectations of spending in 2027/28. It is just money that disappears into BDjr's pocket.

Please sell the team, any owner can play the poor card like this and display low desire to win post season. Its clear they dont want to spend money on a 2025 contract that could expire in 2028, just because a similar contract issued in 2027 might cost a tad less with the cap implementation coming up in a future year....