Bomber1 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:20 am
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
IMO, more than one thing is true:
(1) Since about 2016, I think the direction of Cardinals' ownership has been to keep chasing the level of success from 2000-2015 by putting more resources towards the ML club while not updating and improving the player development side. I think that, along with the dealing of some prospects (Alcantara, Gallen, Arozarena, etc.), led to a hollowing out of the vital prospect pipeline that is needed for the Cardinals to be consistently competitive. So I don't think ownership was necessarily willing to embrace rebuilding before now, no matter who was in the FO.
and
(2) Even if the direction from the ownership was faulty, the FO also implemented it poorly by making bad decisions with the extra resources that were being put towards the ML club with bad FA signings and bad early extensions for some Cardinals players.
Over that period of time, they invested in Ozuna, Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray, and Contreras to name some. But
Goldschmidt and Arenado declined very quickly and Walker and Gorman didn't come on strong. Plus, they had
some serious injuries to some pitchers' arms at the highest levels in the minor league system.
Bomber1 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:20 am
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
IMO, more than one thing is true:
(1) Since about 2016, I think the direction of Cardinals' ownership has been to keep chasing the level of success from 2000-2015 by putting more resources towards the ML club while not updating and improving the player development side. I think that, along with the dealing of some prospects (Alcantara, Gallen, Arozarena, etc.), led to a hollowing out of the vital prospect pipeline that is needed for the Cardinals to be consistently competitive. So I don't think ownership was necessarily willing to embrace rebuilding before now, no matter who was in the FO.
and
(2) Even if the direction from the ownership was faulty, the FO also implemented it poorly by making bad decisions with the extra resources that were being put towards the ML club with bad FA signings and bad early extensions for some Cardinals players.
Over that period of time, they invested in Ozuna, Goldschmidt, Arenado, Gray, and Contreras to name some. But
Goldschmidt and Arenado declined very quickly and Walker and Gorman didn't come on strong. Plus, they had
some serious injuries to some pitchers' arms at the highest levels in the minor league system.
This happens to every team, not just the Cardinals. What happened with the Cardinals, as many have pointed out, they never had a backup plan or players in the minors to replace the injured.
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 10:54 am
DeWitt is an amazing investor and has bought the Cards for $150 million and turned it into a $2.5 billion investment. I applaud him for that but evidently, he needs to make more money from the team. That's understandable, but if for example, the Taylor family bought the Cardinals, Andy and the family make so much money from Enterprise car leasing that they could treat the Cards as a loss leader and tax write-off. I understand the advantages that the mega market teams have in broadcast revenue, but I get the sense that they aren't concerned with making short term money from the ballclub. DeWitt owns Arby's franchises and lots of other investments but perhaps he could keep the stadium and sell the club to someone like the Taylor's who would do so as a way to honor the city and keep making gazillions renting cars and bring the Cardinals into a competitive club for free agents and be willing to operate as a loss for a while. I've lost confidence in the DeWitts. They want to do things on the cheap. Perhaps they have to. Having investments doesn't necessarily translate to cash flow. I spent decades mocking the futility of the Cubs. Now, I fear, we are going to flounder for a long time.
You want an owner who will operate the club as a public service?
Good luck with that…
Plenty of billionaires own sports teams as a hobby and would spend out of their own pocket to see a championship. Steve Cohen does it - and what else is he going to spend it on? Pretty much ALL college boosters and NIL donors operate this way. Where are they seeing a profit?
If we could have an owner like Cohen who would just spend freely to see a winner AND invest it smartly and agressively, I and most here would be happy fans and love the guy.
only three teams had a negative EBITDA in 2024 - the Mets (89-73), White Sox (41-121), and Blue Jays (74-88). So few owners did not turn an operating profit, and turning a loss didn't necessarily lead to success.
The average EBITDA was +$19.9 million. The Cardinals were +$34.4 million. The average EBITDA without the Mets as an outlier was +$30.0 million.
You reinforce the OP’s point. The Cardinals are turning into above average profit, but not winning on the field.
With an owner that did not need that profit, but invests to gratify his need for winning and with a smart president who spends that bankroll smartlythe fans could be a lot happier.
You want an owner who will operate the club as a public service?
Good luck with that…
Plenty of billionaires own sports teams as a hobby and would spend out of their own pocket to see a championship. Steve Cohen does it - and what else is he going to spend it on? Pretty much ALL college boosters and NIL donors operate this way. Where are they seeing a profit?
If we could have an owner like Cohen who would just spend freely to see a winner AND invest it smartly and agressively, I and most here would be happy fans and love the guy.
only three teams had a negative EBITDA in 2024 - the Mets (89-73), White Sox (41-121), and Blue Jays (74-88). So few owners did not turn an operating profit, and turning a loss didn't necessarily lead to success.
The average EBITDA was +$19.9 million. The Cardinals were +$34.4 million. The average EBITDA without the Mets as an outlier was +$30.0 million.
You reinforce the OP’s point. The Cardinals are turning into above average profit, but not winning on the field.
With an owner that did not need that profit, but invests to gratify his need for winning and with a smart president who spends that bankroll smartlythe fans could be a lot happier.
Sure, maybe they could have spent $5-$15 million more in 2024. But that almost certainly wasn't going to win them six more games to give them even a chance of making the playoffs.
Saying they should make an average profit is A LOT different than expecting them to be Steve Cohen (who also hasn't won anything).
Bomber1 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:20 am
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
IMO, more than one thing is true:
(1) Since about 2016, I think the direction of Cardinals' ownership has been to keep chasing the level of success from 2000-2015 by putting more resources towards the ML club while not updating and improving the player development side. I think that, along with the dealing of some prospects (Alcantara, Gallen, Arozarena, etc.), led to a hollowing out of the vital prospect pipeline that is needed for the Cardinals to be consistently competitive. So I don't think ownership was necessarily willing to embrace rebuilding before now, no matter who was in the FO.
and
(2) Even if the direction from the ownership was faulty, the FO also implemented it poorly by making bad decisions with the extra resources that were being put towards the ML club with bad FA signings and bad early extensions for some Cardinals players.
So essentially you’re saying Mozeliak sucked for the past 10 years in all aspects of his job.
Bomber1 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:20 am
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
IMO, more than one thing is true:
(1) Since about 2016, I think the direction of Cardinals' ownership has been to keep chasing the level of success from 2000-2015 by putting more resources towards the ML club while not updating and improving the player development side. I think that, along with the dealing of some prospects (Alcantara, Gallen, Arozarena, etc.), led to a hollowing out of the vital prospect pipeline that is needed for the Cardinals to be consistently competitive. So I don't think ownership was necessarily willing to embrace rebuilding before now, no matter who was in the FO.
and
(2) Even if the direction from the ownership was faulty, the FO also implemented it poorly by making bad decisions with the extra resources that were being put towards the ML club with bad FA signings and bad early extensions for some Cardinals players.
So essentially you’re saying Mozeliak sucked for the past 10 years in all aspects of his job.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
This is an honest view of most fans.
Honest question, Red. Whom do you think is the better catching prospect - Bernal or Rodriguez?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
I respectfully disagree.
I’ll give you Marp in 2021 and 2024, and maybe Waino’s last year, but who else?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
I respectfully disagree.
I’ll give you Marp in 2021 and 2024, and maybe Waino’s last year, but who else?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
I respectfully disagree.
I’ll give you Marp in 2021 and 2024, and maybe Waino’s last year, but who else?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
I agree with the above.
Their high floor/low ceiling draft strategy may have been skewed toward trying to deliver guys whose development was much further along to the ML team faster instead of investing in their own player development process to bring more high ceiling guys along on a longer term pace.
And it wouldn't surprise me if many of the one year too early extensions (Carpenter, Molina, Mikolas, Goldschmidt, etc.) were driven by ownership thinking they wanted to lock in a floor (which didn't turn out to be as high a floor as they thought in some cases) of "name" players in the St. Louis market that would bring fans out.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑05 Nov 2025 21:10 pm
I would think being competitive for a playoff spot and averaging 35-40 thousand a night would be more profitable than the current state of Oli Ball. But maybe I'm wrong.
Just having the lazy, lame (donkey) Mo out of the picture will be a huge bonus. That guy was a putz.
he was waaaaaaay worse than a putz.
He was a part of the successes the Cardinals enjoyed over the 30 years he was with the team.
And he was the main part of the failure that has been 2016-2025.
The way to judge anyone, is to look at both their successes and their failures. If you only look at Mo's failures, your views are too one sided.
The fact of the matter is that the past 10 seasons have been a failure overall.
I don’t much care what he did 15-20 and more years ago.
And his employer shouldn’t have cared either. If he would have acted as most employers do, we would already be on the other side of the rebuild.
I think to be fair to Mo much of his decisions were based on direction from ownership. They chose the safer path. Take college pitchers with higher floors lower ceilings. Don't trade players that are fan favorites. Etc. Yes Mo made mistakes and the TEAM direction for 10 years has been very cautious and wrong. But I believe it was a TEAM effort and strategy that led us here.
I agree with the above.
Their high floor/low ceiling draft strategy may have been skewed toward trying to deliver guys whose development was much further along to the ML team faster instead of investing in their own player development process to bring more high ceiling guys along on a longer term pace.
And it wouldn't surprise me if many of the one year too early extensions (Carpenter, Molina, Mikolas, Goldschmidt, etc.) were driven by ownership thinking they wanted to lock in a floor (which didn't turn out to be as high a floor as they thought in some cases) of "name" players in the St. Louis market that would bring fans out.
Very good synopsis. The Cardinals were always successful in drafting high floor pitchers and trading them as necessary to fill position player holes. Alcantara and Galen in the Ozuna trade, Weaver in the Goldy deal, and Gomber in the Arenado trade. Recently, they’ve started to bulk up the position side of the equation in the minor leagues with better analytical equipment and coaches who know how to train/develop with it.
[fork]ing stupid