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3dender wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:51 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 09:26 am The fixation with thinking improving his bunting will magically make him a valuable enough player to be a productive starter is puzzling.

What's puzzling is that you don't think 2 WAR is a productive starter.

He's already a productive starter at one of the most defensively important positions. The question isn't if he can be "productive" in general it's if he can be productive at the plate, which will make his total production borderline All-Star.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:43 am Just blows my mind how many times VSII would actually get on base w/noone on 2nd and Oli would ANCHOR him to the bag.

With a .320-.330 OB% VSII could easily swipe 100 bases (89% success rate last season!) ala V. Coleman.

But will he ever get to that OB% level?

3dender wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:50 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:43 am Just blows my mind how many times VSII would actually get on base w/noone on 2nd and Oli would ANCHOR him to the bag.

With a .320-.330 OB% VSII could easily swipe 100 bases (89% success rate last season!) ala V. Coleman.

But will he ever get to that OB% level?

His .305 OBP in his first full year when he hasn't even hit his physical peak suggests that yes, he can probably get to that level if not higher.

3dender wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:50 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:43 am Just blows my mind how many times VSII would actually get on base w/noone on 2nd and Oli would ANCHOR him to the bag.

With a .320-.330 OB% VSII could easily swipe 100 bases (89% success rate last season!) ala V. Coleman.

But will he ever get to that OB% level?

His .305 OBP in his first full year when he hasn't even hit his physical peak suggests that yes, he can probably get to that level if not higher.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:36 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 16:22 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 14:37 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 09:29 am He is Billy Hamilton

My comp and fear too scouty.

I don't see that. Hamilton was fast but really that was ALL he was. Scott is a better defender. And while Scott will never be confused with a power hitter they can't knock the bat out of his hands with high velocity. They did it to Hamilton a lot.

I'm willing to give Scott a long look next year to see if he adjusts and as others have mentioned bunt a bit and take advantage of his speed. He doesn't have to do that much more to be an asset every day in CF. STL is OK if up the middle some combination of Bernal/Rodriguez meets projections, JJ and Winn keystone and Scott in CF. That is a group that could gel and be solid on both sides of the ball.

Assuming they trade off Arenado and Contreras (which I think they will try to do) Burleson plays 1B and Herrera DH. The key to all of this is they NEED productive hitters at the corners.

The NEED someone from Gorman, Walker, Saggese, etc to become bats first kind of guys. And better still add a real star like to play 3B or LF. But I'm betting they don't sign much this year looking at a work stoppage and reduced fan support.

Then of course there is the pitching problems to deal with but another day for that.

Well let's see.........

Hamilton age 24 season:

4 HR
57 SB's
.226 .274 .289 .563

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

And you'd also be wrong stating that "Scott is a better defender":

Hamilton had 22 OAA in 2016 (first year stat was available)
VSII had 16 OAA in 2025

VSII (190 lbs) is much bigger and stronger than the razor thin Hamilton (160 lbs) but their slg%'s are remarkably close in their age 24 seasons while Hamilton was the superior base stealer and defensive CFer.

Unless C. Bloom can come up w/a better option in CF next season, then VSII will get another chance to show he can get on base or he's tossed to the scrap pile like J. Walker & N. Gorman will be if they fail in 2025.

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:36 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 16:22 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 14:37 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 09:29 am He is Billy Hamilton

My comp and fear too scouty.

I don't see that. Hamilton was fast but really that was ALL he was. Scott is a better defender. And while Scott will never be confused with a power hitter they can't knock the bat out of his hands with high velocity. They did it to Hamilton a lot.

I'm willing to give Scott a long look next year to see if he adjusts and as others have mentioned bunt a bit and take advantage of his speed. He doesn't have to do that much more to be an asset every day in CF. STL is OK if up the middle some combination of Bernal/Rodriguez meets projections, JJ and Winn keystone and Scott in CF. That is a group that could gel and be solid on both sides of the ball.

Assuming they trade off Arenado and Contreras (which I think they will try to do) Burleson plays 1B and Herrera DH. The key to all of this is they NEED productive hitters at the corners.

The NEED someone from Gorman, Walker, Saggese, etc to become bats first kind of guys. And better still add a real star like to play 3B or LF. But I'm betting they don't sign much this year looking at a work stoppage and reduced fan support.

Then of course there is the pitching problems to deal with but another day for that.

Well let's see.........

Hamilton age 24 season:

4 HR
57 SB's
.226 .274 .289 .563

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

And you'd also be wrong stating that "Scott is a better defender":

Hamilton had 22 OAA in 2016 (first year stat was available)
VSII had 16 OAA in 2025

VSII (190 lbs) is much bigger and stronger than the razor thin Hamilton (160 lbs) but their slg%'s are remarkably close in their age 24 seasons while Hamilton was the superior base stealer and defensive CFer.

Unless C. Bloom can come up w/a better option in CF next season, then VSII will get another chance to show he can get on base or he's tossed to the scrap pile like J. Walker & N. Gorman will be if they fail in 2025.

Fair enough. I still say the big difference is Hamilton was so weak they knocked the bat out of his hands. And in fairness - his career stats were 239/292/325. I think VS shows enough strength to exceed those numbers. We shall see.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 11:42 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:36 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 16:22 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 14:37 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 09:29 am He is Billy Hamilton

My comp and fear too scouty.

I don't see that. Hamilton was fast but really that was ALL he was. Scott is a better defender. And while Scott will never be confused with a power hitter they can't knock the bat out of his hands with high velocity. They did it to Hamilton a lot.

I'm willing to give Scott a long look next year to see if he adjusts and as others have mentioned bunt a bit and take advantage of his speed. He doesn't have to do that much more to be an asset every day in CF. STL is OK if up the middle some combination of Bernal/Rodriguez meets projections, JJ and Winn keystone and Scott in CF. That is a group that could gel and be solid on both sides of the ball.

Assuming they trade off Arenado and Contreras (which I think they will try to do) Burleson plays 1B and Herrera DH. The key to all of this is they NEED productive hitters at the corners.

The NEED someone from Gorman, Walker, Saggese, etc to become bats first kind of guys. And better still add a real star like to play 3B or LF. But I'm betting they don't sign much this year looking at a work stoppage and reduced fan support.

Then of course there is the pitching problems to deal with but another day for that.

Well let's see.........

Hamilton age 24 season:

4 HR
57 SB's
.226 .274 .289 .563

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

And you'd also be wrong stating that "Scott is a better defender":

Hamilton had 22 OAA in 2016 (first year stat was available)
VSII had 16 OAA in 2025

VSII (190 lbs) is much bigger and stronger than the razor thin Hamilton (160 lbs) but their slg%'s are remarkably close in their age 24 seasons while Hamilton was the superior base stealer and defensive CFer.

Unless C. Bloom can come up w/a better option in CF next season, then VSII will get another chance to show he can get on base or he's tossed to the scrap pile like J. Walker & N. Gorman will be if they fail in 2025.

Fair enough. I still say the big difference is Hamilton was so weak they knocked the bat out of his hands. And in fairness - his career stats were 239/292/325. I think VS shows enough strength to exceed those numbers. We shall see.

Yep

The 190 lb VSII is solid vs the stick man, 160 lb Hamilton.

And I hope you're right and VSII is a much better player over time.

rage-STL wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:47 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 11:42 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:36 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 16:22 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 14:37 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 09:29 am He is Billy Hamilton

My comp and fear too scouty.

I don't see that. Hamilton was fast but really that was ALL he was. Scott is a better defender. And while Scott will never be confused with a power hitter they can't knock the bat out of his hands with high velocity. They did it to Hamilton a lot.

I'm willing to give Scott a long look next year to see if he adjusts and as others have mentioned bunt a bit and take advantage of his speed. He doesn't have to do that much more to be an asset every day in CF. STL is OK if up the middle some combination of Bernal/Rodriguez meets projections, JJ and Winn keystone and Scott in CF. That is a group that could gel and be solid on both sides of the ball.

Assuming they trade off Arenado and Contreras (which I think they will try to do) Burleson plays 1B and Herrera DH. The key to all of this is they NEED productive hitters at the corners.

The NEED someone from Gorman, Walker, Saggese, etc to become bats first kind of guys. And better still add a real star like to play 3B or LF. But I'm betting they don't sign much this year looking at a work stoppage and reduced fan support.

Then of course there is the pitching problems to deal with but another day for that.

Well let's see.........

Hamilton age 24 season:

4 HR
57 SB's
.226 .274 .289 .563

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

And you'd also be wrong stating that "Scott is a better defender":

Hamilton had 22 OAA in 2016 (first year stat was available)
VSII had 16 OAA in 2025

VSII (190 lbs) is much bigger and stronger than the razor thin Hamilton (160 lbs) but their slg%'s are remarkably close in their age 24 seasons while Hamilton was the superior base stealer and defensive CFer.

Unless C. Bloom can come up w/a better option in CF next season, then VSII will get another chance to show he can get on base or he's tossed to the scrap pile like J. Walker & N. Gorman will be if they fail in 2025.

Fair enough. I still say the big difference is Hamilton was so weak they knocked the bat out of his hands. And in fairness - his career stats were 239/292/325. I think VS shows enough strength to exceed those numbers. We shall see.

Yep

The 190 lb VSII is solid vs the stick man, 160 lb Hamilton.

And I hope you're right and VSII is a much better player over time.

Is Victor Scott that far off from a Sal Frelick comp?

Frelick age 24 season:

2 HR
18 SB's
.259 .320 .335 .655

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

Frelick had a breakout age 25 season this year. Taking into consideration the strength of the overall lineup Frelick is playing in along with the coaching/team offensive approach the Brewers display; it's clear VSII can't get there alone. He really needs to cutdown on his strike outs and buy in to a high contact approach. Put the ball in play, where it's pitched, and that OBP will climb. The entire Cardinals lineup needs more cohesion and a more team oriented offensive approach overall. Lots of work to be done between now and opening day 2026.

rage-STL wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 12:47 pm Is Victor Scott that far off from a Sal Frelick comp?

Frelick age 24 season:

2 HR
18 SB's
.259 .320 .335 .655

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

Frelick had a breakout age 25 season this year. Taking into consideration the strength of the overall lineup Frelick is playing in along with the coaching/team offensive approach the Brewers display; it's clear VSII can't get there alone. He really needs to cutdown on his strike outs and buy in to a high contact approach. Put the ball in play, where it's pitched, and that OBP will climb. The entire Cardinals lineup needs more cohesion and a more team oriented offensive approach overall. Lots of work to be done between now and opening day 2026.

dugoutrex wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 13:03 pm Bader was a much better overall player than VS and he was run out on a rail

dugoutrex wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 13:03 pm Bader was a much better overall player than VS and he was run out on a rail

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:43 am

icon wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 10:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025 08:36 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 16:22 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 14:37 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025 09:29 am He is Billy Hamilton

My comp and fear too scouty.

I don't see that. Hamilton was fast but really that was ALL he was. Scott is a better defender. And while Scott will never be confused with a power hitter they can't knock the bat out of his hands with high velocity. They did it to Hamilton a lot.

I'm willing to give Scott a long look next year to see if he adjusts and as others have mentioned bunt a bit and take advantage of his speed. He doesn't have to do that much more to be an asset every day in CF. STL is OK if up the middle some combination of Bernal/Rodriguez meets projections, JJ and Winn keystone and Scott in CF. That is a group that could gel and be solid on both sides of the ball.

Assuming they trade off Arenado and Contreras (which I think they will try to do) Burleson plays 1B and Herrera DH. The key to all of this is they NEED productive hitters at the corners.

The NEED someone from Gorman, Walker, Saggese, etc to become bats first kind of guys. And better still add a real star like to play 3B or LF. But I'm betting they don't sign much this year looking at a work stoppage and reduced fan support.

Then of course there is the pitching problems to deal with but another day for that.

Well let's see.........

Hamilton age 24 season:

4 HR
57 SB's
.226 .274 .289 .563

VSII age 24 season:

5 HR
34 SB's
.216 .305 .296 .601

And you'd also be wrong stating that "Scott is a better defender":

Hamilton had 22 OAA in 2016 (first year stat was available)
VSII had 16 OAA in 2025

VSII (190 lbs) is much bigger and stronger than the razor thin Hamilton (160 lbs) but their slg%'s are remarkably close in their age 24 seasons while Hamilton was the superior base stealer and defensive CFer.

Unless C. Bloom can come up w/a better option in CF next season, then VSII will get another chance to show he can get on base or he's tossed to the scrap pile like J. Walker & N. Gorman will be if they fail in 2025.

Yeah, those stats for Hamilton fit my memory of him. A great defensive CF with great speed and a weak bat. Very comparable to Scott today. But Oli will never let him steal 57 bases. Not in his DNA. He likes to wait for the 3-run HR on a team with little HR power.

Just blows my mind how many times VSII would actually get on base w/noone on 2nd and Oli would ANCHOR him to the bag.

With a .320-.330 OB% VSII could easily swipe 100 bases (89% success rate last season!) ala V. Coleman.

But will he ever get to that OB% level?