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ramfandan wrote: ↑20 Sep 2025 17:42 pm according to Oli as reported by Jim Hayes in pregame show .

Guess Oli is feeling he has manager's spot sowed up .
If Herrera can improve defensively to be primary catcher , that means it frees up a 'bat' to be the DH spot adding improved offense .
Guess Bloom will address this in a month

Herrera can show up in Jupiter as a catcher. I suspect the competition he will face will nudge him out of that role. He and WC are just not the best catchers we have. They are both basically bats, although WC plays a serviceable 1B.

they had this season to find out, cause if they somehow found he could, they could trade catching prospects for something needed, but alas, maybe next season they will shoot for 5 catchers instead of 4 on the roster or something.... just more poor time and roster management. Cards must be doing almost nothing for next season or this type thing would be frowned upon.

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 16:05 pm

ramfandan wrote: ↑20 Sep 2025 17:42 pm according to Oli as reported by Jim Hayes in pregame show .

Guess Oli is feeling he has manager's spot sowed up .
If Herrera can improve defensively to be primary catcher , that means it frees up a 'bat' to be the DH spot adding improved offense .
Guess Bloom will address this in a month

Herrera can show up in Jupiter as a catcher. I suspect the competition he will face will nudge him out of that role. He and WC are just not the best catchers we have. They are both basically bats, although WC plays a serviceable 1B.

WillyCon is more than serviceable at 1b.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 12:08 pm

renostl wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 11:47 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 11:05 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 10:48 am Aside from his well below major league level throwing issues he had two stays on the IL this season.

Could a move behind the plate could to more?

I'd rather move WillyC back behind the plate, backed up by Pages? or Crooks? and slot Ivan at 1st base.

You during all ST: “Herrera needs to start almost every game! Pages is a JAG!”

After Herrera starts only 13 games at catcher in 2025:

“Put Herrera at 1b!!!”


Here’s the thing: if IH wants to catch, at least let him try. And if the org didn’t think he had a future in catching, he would’ve moved off catcher years ago…

Agree.
He doesn't need to beat out Yadi for a job, just Pages or Crooks. Pages is not all that great.
My opinion says he should be in the squat a little more. IF that helps his footwork and throws and he can catch
half the games, the team is better. Exceptional bat for C.

Pages has contributed to 33 WP charged to the pitcher, 8 PB. He's #51 in blocks,
#26 in Pop time, #19 in CS above average, along with #18 arm.
That OPS+ of 81 is worse than his 2024.

Herrera in 2024 was #18 in blocks, #23 in POP tied with Pedro, #58 in CS above average, IH had a -4 while PP had -3,
but has that #59 arm.

To date it's glove/blocks vs better arm.

Ivan is horrible behind the plate. Put his 2025 numbers up...CS% 0 for 15 in 13 games
Teams ran without fear.
No arm, legs couldn't handle it.
Extrapolate his PB's to the 100 games Pages caught

Using his 12 games are whatever it was for this season is as worthless as extrapolating
IH's 33% CS numbers back in 2023. That would be silly.

The blocks are Blocks above average. Imperfect for sure but Pozo is doing
better than Pages in that.

The attempt was showing a sample size that might mean a little something. 2024 both
guys caught the same pitchers. Similar inherent ability for the pitchers doing their part in the
running game, pitch control etc.

The bigger point is neither are ideal behind the plate for 100+ games. Both need to improve or be limited in how
they are used. IH against teams like the current Cards, they don't run unless VSII gets on base and
the situation calls for it. Pages gets used when a starter gets a day off without being a liability.
If they're being used as the minority game catcher, it's subjective which one is better on this
roster.
If no improvement next guy up with either.

Herrera started 363 games at catcher during eight years in the minors. In fact other than a handful of games at 1b in Panama and DHing at Memphis he never played any other position. If he had no future catching in the majors it would seem that assessment should have been made years ago.

cardiological wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 22:28 pm Herrera started 363 games at catcher during eight years in the minors. In fact other than a handful of games at 1b in Panama and DHing at Memphis he never played any other position. If he had no future catching in the majors it would seem that assessment should have been made years ago.

I think that is and was part of the problem. The Cards hoped he would become a good catcher when he just wasn't. If he did not figure out the throwing thing in 8 years in the minors, plus supposedly working on it all last winter, I don't think he is going to improve now. Burleson has the arm to be a RF. Herrera makes sense in LF. If they want to continue the Walker experiment next year, then they can rotate Walker, Burleson and Herrera around the Of and in the DH slot. If they trade Walker, then Herrera and Burleson in the OF is fine. This will be the most interesting offseason in years...

I was baffled at first when they said he would catch again next season but They did say today he is having offseason surgery on his elbow and that that had given him problems with throwing the past couple of seasons so apparently the cardinals think with the surgery he will be able to throw again and be a decent catcher

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 00:36 am I was baffled at first when they said he would catch again next season but They did say today he is having offseason surgery on his elbow and that that had given him problems with throwing the past couple of seasons so apparently the cardinals think with the surgery he will be able to throw again and be a decent catcher

Hopefully it is a procedure that works for him.

The Cardinals have been around him for about a decade.
I realize that the Cards don't have a perfect record in player assessment.
But how could they possibly not notice the throwing arm of a catcher?

He has had 26% to 28% CS in MiLB.
The team is better if he can indeed catch. If it doesn't work so be it.

Pages has started 99 games and caught 876 innings this season.
And has a massive defensive edge over Herrera.
Clearly the coaches and pitching staff have a huge preference for him behind the plate.
Herrera has almost zero chance of displacing him.
STL is really doing a disservice to Herrera in all this.
Competent leaders would be coaching Herrera toward a solution that is in the team's best interest - and HIS.
He needs to move to the outfield, IB, or another team.

the first move of the new front office is to again screw around and do dumb things, and waste time...

I think this tells you they intend to mail in the 2026 season.

Unless the surgeons are replacing his wet noodle arm w/a bionic arm he's still going to be the same poor throwing catcher.

This is a terrible idea w/so many good catching prospects on the runway and landing soon in St. Louis over the next couple years.

UNLESS this move is to up his trade value (which would weaken an already offensively challenged by team removing their best hitter), then it's a complete waste of time.

He needs to take that OF'ers mitt and work w/J. Jay all winter improving his LF play.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 21:22 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 16:05 pm

ramfandan wrote: ↑20 Sep 2025 17:42 pm according to Oli as reported by Jim Hayes in pregame show .

Guess Oli is feeling he has manager's spot sowed up .
If Herrera can improve defensively to be primary catcher , that means it frees up a 'bat' to be the DH spot adding improved offense .
Guess Bloom will address this in a month

Herrera can show up in Jupiter as a catcher. I suspect the competition he will face will nudge him out of that role. He and WC are just not the best catchers we have. They are both basically bats, although WC plays a serviceable 1B.

WillyCon is more than serviceable at 1b.

Ok.

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 12:17 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 21:22 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 16:05 pm

ramfandan wrote: ↑20 Sep 2025 17:42 pm according to Oli as reported by Jim Hayes in pregame show .

Guess Oli is feeling he has manager's spot sowed up .
If Herrera can improve defensively to be primary catcher , that means it frees up a 'bat' to be the DH spot adding improved offense .
Guess Bloom will address this in a month

Herrera can show up in Jupiter as a catcher. I suspect the competition he will face will nudge him out of that role. He and WC are just not the best catchers we have. They are both basically bats, although WC plays a serviceable 1B.

WillyCon is more than serviceable at 1b.

Ok.

Top 5 in outs above average...ahead of historical gold glover, Christian Walker

Melville wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 08:56 am Pages has started 99 games and caught 876 innings this season.
And has a massive defensive edge over Herrera.
Clearly the coaches and pitching staff have a huge preference for him behind the plate.
Herrera has almost zero chance of displacing him.
STL is really doing a disservice to Herrera in all this.
Competent leaders would be coaching Herrera toward a solution that is in the team's best interest - and HIS.
He needs to move to the outfield, IB, or another team.

1B may be ideal.
Today, I'd lean toward Burleson taking one of the corner OF spots.

The entire reason this has any legs at all is that Pages is average.
If the coaching staff had a true affinity to Pages as a primary catcher
then why not back him more vs adding clutter.

Then again does it mean anything if incompetence says "you're the guy"
or "you're not the guy"

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 16:05 pm They are both basically bats, although WC plays a serviceable 1B.

He actually was much better than "serviceable at 1B" BFM.

His +6 OAA ranked 6th best in MLB.

This was a big upgrade over 2024 Goldy who was a "0" OAA last season.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Sep 2025 12:55 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Sep 2025 16:05 pm They are both basically bats, although WC plays a serviceable 1B.

He actually was much better than "serviceable at 1B" BFM.

His +6 OAA ranked 6th best in MLB.

This was a big upgrade over 2024 Goldy who was a "0" OAA last season.

Contreras clearly showed that he can be a top tier 1B.
Among starting primary 1B's this season, he has the 10 best OPS.
9th in RBI (despite being just 13th in PA).
8th in OBP.
And as you correctly note, he has been one of the better gloves at the position.
This makes a very interesting scenario for STL.
Is HE the trade piece - or is he the keeper?
If Lars the Human Sushi-baar is finally traded 4 years too late, and if Burleson moves to LF, and if Gorman/Herrera become the 1b/DH tandem (thereby clearing 2b/3b for Wetherholt/Donovan) does that make Contreras valuable as a trade piece?
Or, if Gorman remains at 3b, with Donovan moving to LF, and Contreras/Burleson become 1B/DH tandem, does Herrera become the bait?
Or does Herrera simply move to LF to replace Mootbaar?
There are other potential permutations as well.