Roby had TJ surgery last Friday

[dugoutrex]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

true, but ... Saggy has not looked very good

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

true, but ... Saggy has not looked very good

[An Old Friend]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

true, but ... Saggy has not looked very good

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

true, but ... Saggy has not looked very good

That tends to happen when teams promote players before they’re ready.

[3dender]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was lame. As in nothing to get excited about. It may have been the best trade that could have been made but its like going to work at Wendys for $5 hr. its a lame job. It might be the best you can do in that exact situation but it doesn't get you ahead so you need to figure out something else as well.

So your point is that they should have traded more players at the 2023 deadline? We agree on that at least.

[3dender]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

true, but ... Saggy has not looked very good

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

true, but ... Saggy has not looked very good

Again: 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 a few months ago.

[Carp4Cy]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

It’s not like they were trading for a guy in A ball. Saggese was hitting well in AA and Roby had a high ceiling. Pretty much ANY trade could bust. The Cardinals traded for a proven MLB player (Mark DeRosa) and he wasn’t very good and got hurt. The White Sox traded a lotto ticket to the Padres for a proven MLB starter (James Shields). The lotto ticket (Fernando Tatis Jr.) is a 25 WAR career player now at 26 years old and Shields went 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA for Chicago.

meanwhile, our offense is doing nothing at the MLB level. Whatever trades we make this week need to be for 2026 help, not 2029 help. Use your draft picks to stock for the next decade.

[3dender]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

It’s not like they were trading for a guy in A ball. Saggese was hitting well in AA and Roby had a high ceiling. Pretty much ANY trade could bust. The Cardinals traded for a proven MLB player (Mark DeRosa) and he wasn’t very good and got hurt. The White Sox traded a lotto ticket to the Padres for a proven MLB starter (James Shields). The lotto ticket (Fernando Tatis Jr.) is a 25 WAR career player now at 26 years old and Shields went 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA for Chicago.

meanwhile, our offense is doing nothing at the MLB level. Whatever trades we make this week need to be for 2026 help, not 2029 help. Use your draft picks to stock for the next decade.

They're almost certainly not gonna trade enough value this week to get 2026 help... that will need to happen in the offseason when they can move a couple of Noot/Gorman/Burleson/Donovan.

[hugeCardfan]

As I have often said about the Cardinals management and their lack of honesty with the fans. Just another example.

Where did they lie? For that matter, what information do they owe you?

The HIPAA Privacy Rule establishes national standards to protect individuals' medical records and other individually identifiable health information. It governs how covered entities, like healthcare providers and health plans, can use and disclose this protected health information (PHI). The rule also grants individuals certain rights regarding their PHI.

What part of this don't you understand?

[ICCFIM2]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was lame. As in nothing to get excited about. It may have been the best trade that could have been made but its like going to work at Wendys for $5 hr. its a lame job. It might be the best you can do in that exact situation but it doesn't get you ahead so you need to figure out something else as well.

You will likely be disappointed with this deadline too. If we only trade the 3 relief pitchers, Helsley, Matton and Matz, what do you think the return should be? I am guessing for Matton and Matz, it will be an A ball lottery pick pitcher. For Helsley, it is likely to be someone like a Roby, good stuff, in AA and a couple years out. Unfortunatley, pitching gets hurt. Look at the Dodgers, they had 10 SPs under contract and can hardly field a complete rotation. On paper, their 6-10 pitchers were better than our 1-5.

[An Old Friend]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

It’s not like they were trading for a guy in A ball. Saggese was hitting well in AA and Roby had a high ceiling. Pretty much ANY trade could bust. The Cardinals traded for a proven MLB player (Mark DeRosa) and he wasn’t very good and got hurt. The White Sox traded a lotto ticket to the Padres for a proven MLB starter (James Shields). The lotto ticket (Fernando Tatis Jr.) is a 25 WAR career player now at 26 years old and Shields went 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA for Chicago.

meanwhile, our offense is doing nothing at the MLB level. Whatever trades we make this week need to be for 2026 help, not 2029 help. Use your draft picks to stock for the next decade.

Doing so, you’re trading away ceiling for proximity.

This org needs more ceiling and less proximity.

[An Old Friend]

Look at the Dodgers, they had 10 SPs under contract and can hardly field a complete rotation. On paper, their 6-10 pitchers were better than our 1-5.

That last part is nowhere close to true.

I’d be really interested to see who you were including in that 6-10 for 2025.

[Bomber1]

As I have often said about the Cardinals management and their lack of honesty with the fans. Just another example.

Where did they lie? For that matter, what information do they owe you?

The HIPAA Privacy Rule establishes national standards to protect individuals' medical records and other individually identifiable health information. It governs how covered entities, like healthcare providers and health plans, can use and disclose this protected health information (PHI). The rule also grants individuals certain rights regarding their PHI.

What part of this don't you understand?

You can always be counted on to defend the organization despite the fact that a previous poster’s response proved yours wrong.

[Carp4Cy]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was lame. As in nothing to get excited about. It may have been the best trade that could have been made but its like going to work at Wendys for $5 hr. its a lame job. It might be the best you can do in that exact situation but it doesn't get you ahead so you need to figure out something else as well.

You will likely be disappointed with this deadline too. If we only trade the 3 relief pitchers, Helsley, Matton and Matz, what do you think the return should be? I am guessing for Matton and Matz, it will be an A ball lottery pick pitcher. For Helsley, it is likely to be someone like a Roby, good stuff, in AA and a couple years out. Unfortunatley, pitching gets hurt. Look at the Dodgers, they had 10 SPs under contract and can hardly field a complete rotation. On paper, their 6-10 pitchers were better than our 1-5.

This is why I agrue that the comp pick from Helsely declining a QO (a risk but much less of a risk than most people assume) would be a better return than a trade for a prospect that some other team is willing to part with for reasons only they know.

[Carp4Cy]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

It’s not like they were trading for a guy in A ball. Saggese was hitting well in AA and Roby had a high ceiling. Pretty much ANY trade could bust. The Cardinals traded for a proven MLB player (Mark DeRosa) and he wasn’t very good and got hurt. The White Sox traded a lotto ticket to the Padres for a proven MLB starter (James Shields). The lotto ticket (Fernando Tatis Jr.) is a 25 WAR career player now at 26 years old and Shields went 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA for Chicago.

meanwhile, our offense is doing nothing at the MLB level. Whatever trades we make this week need to be for 2026 help, not 2029 help. Use your draft picks to stock for the next decade.

Doing so, you’re trading away ceiling for proximity.

This org needs more ceiling and less proximity.

We could get ceiling in the draft, without having to wade thru other orgnaizations rejects. They last 2 years however we've taken Proximity+ceiling in the first round, and basically just proximity or signability in the later rounds. Too conservative IMO.

But you can get current talent in trades if you are willing to spend the $ we've saved from salary dumps already.

Rolen
Glaus
Holliday
Berkman
Furcal
Ozuna (when he wasn't hurt)
Goldy
Nado

All provided immediate and fairly high ceiling help to our lineup when we traded for them. And several of them didn't take that much talent in return (excluding Ozuna of course).

[ICCFIM2]

Look at the Dodgers, they had 10 SPs under contract and can hardly field a complete rotation. On paper, their 6-10 pitchers were better than our 1-5.

That last part is nowhere close to true.

I’d be really interested to see who you were including in that 6-10 for 2025.

The Dodgers SP was Snell, Glasnow, Ohtani, Yamamoto and Kershaw. That left Sasaki, Gonsolin, May, Miller and Wrobleski as 6-10. Of course they have had major injury problems the Dodgers. But, if you could take the current Cards staff or the Dodgers 6-10 listed above, who are you taking?

[ICCFIM2]

So even the trade we thought was good is still pending in the Monty trade

Roby will be 26ish by the time he is healed and developed in the minors
Saggese has shown flashes, but still a lot to prove
King overall has been serviceable, I think

Moe is trash

The trade was lame. Saggesse is a Jag. Roby is an injured bust. Bloom has to find other ways to improve this franchise besides trading vets for lotto tickets like this that give us 0 WAR.

Kinda early to decide Saggese's fate when he's had 140 PAs, totally inconsistent PT, and just turned 23 this season.

Which makes my point - any vets traded this week need to be for MLB ready prospects (Spencer Jones) or already proven and controllable players - not EARLY prospects that might never pan out.

That wasn't your point... your point was that the trade was bad because Saggese is bad and Roby got injured. Which is bad analysis since as I said, the jury is very much still out on Saggese, and Roby's ceiling is super high if he can stay healthy, which we won't know for years.

So you're being extremely short-sighted on analyzing this trade. Neither of them was ever gonna make a difference in 2025 and 2 months of Montgomery was never gonna get a 2025 difference-maker.

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was lame. As in nothing to get excited about. It may have been the best trade that could have been made but its like going to work at Wendys for $5 hr. its a lame job. It might be the best you can do in that exact situation but it doesn't get you ahead so you need to figure out something else as well.

You will likely be disappointed with this deadline too. If we only trade the 3 relief pitchers, Helsley, Matton and Matz, what do you think the return should be? I am guessing for Matton and Matz, it will be an A ball lottery pick pitcher. For Helsley, it is likely to be someone like a Roby, good stuff, in AA and a couple years out. Unfortunatley, pitching gets hurt. Look at the Dodgers, they had 10 SPs under contract and can hardly field a complete rotation. On paper, their 6-10 pitchers were better than our 1-5.

This is why I agrue that the comp pick from Helsely declining a QO (a risk but much less of a risk than most people assume) would be a better return than a trade for a prospect that some other team is willing to part with for reasons only they know.

It might be. But, you are taking a $21M risk he might take it. You are also risking if he does take it, you end up with nothing for him. The draft pick also goes with a $2-2.5M bonus to be paid out and a player that will not be ready for 3-4 years at least. It is another approach. But, if the competitive window is 2027, then your approach will not help that competitive window. The help won't arrive until 2029.

[An Old Friend]

Look at the Dodgers, they had 10 SPs under contract and can hardly field a complete rotation. On paper, their 6-10 pitchers were better than our 1-5.

That last part is nowhere close to true.

I’d be really interested to see who you were including in that 6-10 for 2025.

The Dodgers SP was Snell, Glasnow, Ohtani, Yamamoto and Kershaw. That left Sasaki, Gonsolin, May, Miller and Wrobleski as 6-10. Of course they have had major injury problems the Dodgers. But, if you could take the current Cards staff or the Dodgers 6-10 listed above, who are you taking?

Ok so now you’re just making things up on the fly.

Neither Ohtani or Kershaw were even available at the start of the season, so you can’t just magically put them in their 1-5. Bobby Miller was a disaster and Wrobleski had made 5 starts in AAA with awful results and peripherals. Gonsolin missed 2024 and was a total wildcard for 2025.

If I had to pick 5 pitchers from the Cards and Dodgers out of those groups, I would have taken, in order, Gray, Sasaki, Liberatore, Pallante, and Fedde