Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 19:42 pm
Just went yard for the 2nd time tonight. He's making a case.
4 HR's now...2 more AB's
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How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
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Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 19:47 pm
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 19:57 pm
I don't know whose stats you think you're posting, but they aren't Maton's.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:02 pm50 hits 52 innings. 46 strikeouts in 52 innings. ERA 3.29 Not great. Not terrible. Average. I doubt we will get much for him at his age. I'm also now ready to throw in the towel on the 2025 season. We'll see what the next 9 days look like.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:32 pmNo need to patronize, no stars coming back for them.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:29 pmH/9 52/50 K/9 52/46 ERA 3.29 34 years old. Walk year of his contract. If we can get a lot for him I'd jump all over the deal and send a private jet to pick up the future star prospect we get.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:45 pmMatz has a 5:1 strikeout to walk ratio, a .641 OPS against, and a 2.90 FIP. Every contender would want that in their bullpen.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:35 pmMatz vastly overpaid in his walk year. Maton 34 years old and average stats. Both middle relievers. Helsley in his walk year. If they can get a lot I'd trade them without hesitation.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:05 pmThey’d get a return on the first 3 without a doubtScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:03 pmThe reason you want to trade Helsley, Matz, Maton, Fedde and Mikolas is the same reason they won't bring a lot in return.Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 amMy prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson
Maton makes nothing, has a 2.50 ERA and 2 HR allowed in his last 70 appearances, and has a .618 OPS against in 2025
I don’t think you know what “average stats” are.
I don’t know what your numbers (52/50, 52/46) are in reference to.
Edit:
Oh, so it was Matz's stats: he's 27% above league average by ERA+. He is considerably above average, mostly due to being well above average at limiting HRs and walks, two stats you just happened to leave out. Average ERA in MLB this season is 4.08, so 3.29 is significantly better than average.
AOF is correct, you don't know what average stats are.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 20:02 pm
Okay, I was really against rushing the guy to the majors this year, but much more of this, especially depending on how this trade deadline goes, and he might force his way onto the team.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 20:19 pm
Masyn Winn and Wetherholt BOTH need to be on the team. They are the future.
Winn is 23 with decent offense. But his defense, at a premium position, is elite. He is likely to win the GG this year as he is a statcast darling (16 OAA & 12 runs prevented). He has won us some games with the glove, no doubt.
To start the year, we didn't even have a backup SS listed. Wetherholt can get plenty of time backing up Winn SS while primarily playing 2B + 3B. He played 3B quite a bit in college and Daniel Guerrero mentioned he would likely get more games at 3B in AAA this year. Nobody is blocking him as he can play all over the infield.
I don't like trading good, young players for prospects. A prospect is a HOPE that you get a Masyn Winn.
If they want to trade some guys who haven't proven they can put it together for a season, like Noot, I'm understanding of that.
Winn is 23 with decent offense. But his defense, at a premium position, is elite. He is likely to win the GG this year as he is a statcast darling (16 OAA & 12 runs prevented). He has won us some games with the glove, no doubt.
To start the year, we didn't even have a backup SS listed. Wetherholt can get plenty of time backing up Winn SS while primarily playing 2B + 3B. He played 3B quite a bit in college and Daniel Guerrero mentioned he would likely get more games at 3B in AAA this year. Nobody is blocking him as he can play all over the infield.
I don't like trading good, young players for prospects. A prospect is a HOPE that you get a Masyn Winn.
If they want to trade some guys who haven't proven they can put it together for a season, like Noot, I'm understanding of that.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 20:24 pm
Agreed, put Winn at SS and Wetherholt at 2B and you don’t have to worry about the middle infield for the next 6-10 years plus.TXCardsFanX wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 20:19 pm Masyn Winn and Wetherholt BOTH need to be on the team. They are the future.
Winn is 23 with decent offense. But his defense, at a premium position, is elite. He is likely to win the GG this year as he is a statcast darling (16 OAA & 12 runs prevented). He has won us some games with the glove, no doubt.
To start the year, we didn't even have a backup SS listed. Wetherholt can get plenty of time backing up Winn SS while primarily playing 2B + 3B. He played 3B quite a bit in college and Daniel Guerrero mentioned he would likely get more games at 3B in AAA this year. Nobody is blocking him as he can play all over the infield.
I don't like trading good, young players for prospects. A prospect is a HOPE that you get a Masyn Winn.
If they want to trade some guys who haven't proven they can put it together for a season, like Noot, I'm understanding of that.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 20:30 pm
Come on.rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:13 am IF a team comes asking for M. Winn, then you absolutely listen.
If it's a great offer, then JJ playing SS since drafted means he's called up after Winn's dealt and playing SS.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 20:39 pm
Winn for a young, high level starting pitcher and a, young, MOTO slugger should be the demand. Only because of the emergence of Wetherholt at SS.ecleme22 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 20:30 pmCome on.rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:13 am IF a team comes asking for M. Winn, then you absolutely listen.
If it's a great offer, then JJ playing SS since drafted means he's called up after Winn's dealt and playing SS.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 20:46 pm
Agree with all this. Even with some injuries, Winn is still league average offensively. He's elite defensively. He's also only 23, so he's still got room to grow.TXCardsFanX wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 20:19 pm Masyn Winn and Wetherholt BOTH need to be on the team. They are the future.
Winn is 23 with decent offense. But his defense, at a premium position, is elite. He is likely to win the GG this year as he is a statcast darling (16 OAA & 12 runs prevented). He has won us some games with the glove, no doubt.
To start the year, we didn't even have a backup SS listed. Wetherholt can get plenty of time backing up Winn SS while primarily playing 2B + 3B. He played 3B quite a bit in college and Daniel Guerrero mentioned he would likely get more games at 3B in AAA this year. Nobody is blocking him as he can play all over the infield.
I don't like trading good, young players for prospects. A prospect is a HOPE that you get a Masyn Winn.
If they want to trade some guys who haven't proven they can put it together for a season, like Noot, I'm understanding of that.
With Wetherholt, like you said, he can play SS, 2B, or 3B. I wouldn't mind if they saw what he could do in CF either, but I'll trust the new guys in development if they're not going there. But either way, he's not going to be as good defensively at SS as Winn, so I wouldn't use him as an excuse to trade Winn.
I would think about some extension offers for both of them, though.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 21:15 pm
Okay. He is above average. $12 million is more than above average salary for a 34 year old relief pitcher. I suppose if the goal is to get rid of the remaining $4 million on his contract trading him makes sense but it's unlikely we get much for him in exchange. Maton is would likely bring something in return although he also is in his walk year which is a major factor in a trade.AnExParrot wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 19:57 pmI don't know whose stats you think you're posting, but they aren't Maton's.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:02 pm50 hits 52 innings. 46 strikeouts in 52 innings. ERA 3.29 Not great. Not terrible. Average. I doubt we will get much for him at his age. I'm also now ready to throw in the towel on the 2025 season. We'll see what the next 9 days look like.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:32 pmNo need to patronize, no stars coming back for them.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:29 pmH/9 52/50 K/9 52/46 ERA 3.29 34 years old. Walk year of his contract. If we can get a lot for him I'd jump all over the deal and send a private jet to pick up the future star prospect we get.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:45 pmMatz has a 5:1 strikeout to walk ratio, a .641 OPS against, and a 2.90 FIP. Every contender would want that in their bullpen.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:35 pmMatz vastly overpaid in his walk year. Maton 34 years old and average stats. Both middle relievers. Helsley in his walk year. If they can get a lot I'd trade them without hesitation.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:05 pmThey’d get a return on the first 3 without a doubtScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:03 pmThe reason you want to trade Helsley, Matz, Maton, Fedde and Mikolas is the same reason they won't bring a lot in return.Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 amMy prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson
Maton makes nothing, has a 2.50 ERA and 2 HR allowed in his last 70 appearances, and has a .618 OPS against in 2025
I don’t think you know what “average stats” are.
I don’t know what your numbers (52/50, 52/46) are in reference to.
Edit:
Oh, so it was Matz's stats: he's 27% above league average by ERA+. He is considerably above average, mostly due to being well above average at limiting HRs and walks, two stats you just happened to leave out. Average ERA in MLB this season is 4.08, so 3.29 is significantly better than average.
AOF is correct, you don't know what average stats are.
The only name I see floated who would bring something significant in return is Donovan but I don't know why anybody would trade him.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 21:26 pm
So how many more PA at AAA will convince you JJ can hit AAA pitching?
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 21:37 pm
Yeah, because that wouldn’t have chilling effect on an free agents or trade targets you hope to get to waive a NTC…Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:06 pmAbsolutely, this FO thinks its in business for the exclusive benefit of the PLAYER…..yes, Mr. Arenado we’ll do our best to find you an exact place you can be happiest!!! And we’ll kiss your (bleep) all along the processAn Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:45 pmSeparate is better, yes.JDW wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:33 pmSo trade Helsley alone for a better return, while also trying to deal Arenado in another trade could work.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:24 pmTrade Helsley alone for a better return.JDW wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:19 pm I sure wouldn't trade Winn, instead thinking he's a core piece moving forward in tandem with Wetherholt in the middle infield.
The need to trade Arenado is glaring imo. The Yankees overall defense stinks. Nolan can help them with that. Do what it takes to trade him before the deadline.
In the 2nd half the Cards could go with an infield alignment of Donovan-Winn-Wetherholt and Contreras. That's not bad, and potentially a pretty good one.
Trade Fedde and replace with McGreevy.
The Brewers traded Hader, then last year Delvin Williams, yet this year their BP is good. OK, trading Helsley doesn't necessarily bankrupt the Cards remote chances this year, but if it does, they can still potentially form a decent BP for 2026.
Wonder what a package of Arenado, Helsley and Fedde could fetch from the Yankees.
Would that be a better strategy in your view?
Guess if it took packaging Arenado to move him even with a lesser return, I'd still be considering it. Just feel like the need to move on from Arenado is a priority, but quite possible I'm wrong.
Mozeliak has failed for some time to trade Arenado. He can’t continue to allow that to prevent him from doing anything else.
If you can’t move Arenado now, move him to the bench, and Bloom can find a new home for him in the offseason.
They will maximize their returns if they auction all of Helsley, Matz, Maton, and JoJo separately
Last Winter dumb[ash] Mo shouldn’t sat all these vets down and said “either you agree to trades we have in place or your playing time will be drastically reduced, good luck with using your ‘25 stats for a future contract or padding some HOF wish….you will be benched most of the time for a younger player”…..perhaps that wouldve changed their tune.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 21:41 pm
Do you think any worthy FA wants to come to STL given the current state of this losing organization?Red7 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 21:37 pmYeah, because that wouldn’t have chilling effect on an free agents or trade targets you hope to get to waive a NTC…Goldfan wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:06 pmAbsolutely, this FO thinks its in business for the exclusive benefit of the PLAYER…..yes, Mr. Arenado we’ll do our best to find you an exact place you can be happiest!!! And we’ll kiss your (bleep) all along the processAn Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:45 pmSeparate is better, yes.JDW wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:33 pmSo trade Helsley alone for a better return, while also trying to deal Arenado in another trade could work.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:24 pmTrade Helsley alone for a better return.JDW wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 12:19 pm I sure wouldn't trade Winn, instead thinking he's a core piece moving forward in tandem with Wetherholt in the middle infield.
The need to trade Arenado is glaring imo. The Yankees overall defense stinks. Nolan can help them with that. Do what it takes to trade him before the deadline.
In the 2nd half the Cards could go with an infield alignment of Donovan-Winn-Wetherholt and Contreras. That's not bad, and potentially a pretty good one.
Trade Fedde and replace with McGreevy.
The Brewers traded Hader, then last year Delvin Williams, yet this year their BP is good. OK, trading Helsley doesn't necessarily bankrupt the Cards remote chances this year, but if it does, they can still potentially form a decent BP for 2026.
Wonder what a package of Arenado, Helsley and Fedde could fetch from the Yankees.
Would that be a better strategy in your view?
Guess if it took packaging Arenado to move him even with a lesser return, I'd still be considering it. Just feel like the need to move on from Arenado is a priority, but quite possible I'm wrong.
Mozeliak has failed for some time to trade Arenado. He can’t continue to allow that to prevent him from doing anything else.
If you can’t move Arenado now, move him to the bench, and Bloom can find a new home for him in the offseason.
They will maximize their returns if they auction all of Helsley, Matz, Maton, and JoJo separately
Last Winter dumb[ash] Mo shouldn’t sat all these vets down and said “either you agree to trades we have in place or your playing time will be drastically reduced, good luck with using your ‘25 stats for a future contract or padding some HOF wish….you will be benched most of the time for a younger player”…..perhaps that wouldve changed their tune.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 23 Jul 2025 22:09 pm
MOTO Slugger where? Second base? Why not put JJ at 2B for now? He can mash.Shady wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 20:39 pmWinn for a young, high level starting pitcher and a, young, MOTO slugger should be the demand. Only because of the emergence of Wetherholt at SS.ecleme22 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 20:30 pmCome on.rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:13 am IF a team comes asking for M. Winn, then you absolutely listen.
If it's a great offer, then JJ playing SS since drafted means he's called up after Winn's dealt and playing SS.
You don't get rid of Winn. He's a FA in 2030. That'a long time.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 24 Jul 2025 08:53 am
4 million is nothing to a contending team wanting to shore up either the back end of their rotation or their bullpen for the stretch run. 4 million is also nothing to the Cardinals if they want to maximize their return in a trade, as the remaining money on Matz's contract has to be paid if he isn't traded.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 21:15 pmOkay. He is above average. $12 million is more than above average salary for a 34 year old relief pitcher. I suppose if the goal is to get rid of the remaining $4 million on his contract trading him makes sense but it's unlikely we get much for him in exchange. Maton is would likely bring something in return although he also is in his walk year which is a major factor in a trade.AnExParrot wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 19:57 pmI don't know whose stats you think you're posting, but they aren't Maton's.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:02 pm50 hits 52 innings. 46 strikeouts in 52 innings. ERA 3.29 Not great. Not terrible. Average. I doubt we will get much for him at his age. I'm also now ready to throw in the towel on the 2025 season. We'll see what the next 9 days look like.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:32 pmNo need to patronize, no stars coming back for them.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:29 pmH/9 52/50 K/9 52/46 ERA 3.29 34 years old. Walk year of his contract. If we can get a lot for him I'd jump all over the deal and send a private jet to pick up the future star prospect we get.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:45 pmMatz has a 5:1 strikeout to walk ratio, a .641 OPS against, and a 2.90 FIP. Every contender would want that in their bullpen.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:35 pmMatz vastly overpaid in his walk year. Maton 34 years old and average stats. Both middle relievers. Helsley in his walk year. If they can get a lot I'd trade them without hesitation.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:05 pmThey’d get a return on the first 3 without a doubtScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:03 pmThe reason you want to trade Helsley, Matz, Maton, Fedde and Mikolas is the same reason they won't bring a lot in return.Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 amMy prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson
Maton makes nothing, has a 2.50 ERA and 2 HR allowed in his last 70 appearances, and has a .618 OPS against in 2025
I don’t think you know what “average stats” are.
I don’t know what your numbers (52/50, 52/46) are in reference to.
Edit:
Oh, so it was Matz's stats: he's 27% above league average by ERA+. He is considerably above average, mostly due to being well above average at limiting HRs and walks, two stats you just happened to leave out. Average ERA in MLB this season is 4.08, so 3.29 is significantly better than average.
AOF is correct, you don't know what average stats are.
The only name I see floated who would bring something significant in return is Donovan but I don't know why anybody would trade him.
Re: How much does Wetherholt factor into the trade deadline plans?
Posted: 24 Jul 2025 10:45 am
Since we appear to be collapsing I'd say Maton and Matz both could get traded if there is a contended who is looking for bullpen help. I'll be surprised if we get much in return.AnExParrot wrote: ↑24 Jul 2025 08:53 am4 million is nothing to a contending team wanting to shore up either the back end of their rotation or their bullpen for the stretch run. 4 million is also nothing to the Cardinals if they want to maximize their return in a trade, as the remaining money on Matz's contract has to be paid if he isn't traded.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 21:15 pmOkay. He is above average. $12 million is more than above average salary for a 34 year old relief pitcher. I suppose if the goal is to get rid of the remaining $4 million on his contract trading him makes sense but it's unlikely we get much for him in exchange. Maton is would likely bring something in return although he also is in his walk year which is a major factor in a trade.AnExParrot wrote: ↑23 Jul 2025 19:57 pmI don't know whose stats you think you're posting, but they aren't Maton's.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 19:02 pm50 hits 52 innings. 46 strikeouts in 52 innings. ERA 3.29 Not great. Not terrible. Average. I doubt we will get much for him at his age. I'm also now ready to throw in the towel on the 2025 season. We'll see what the next 9 days look like.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 15:32 pmNo need to patronize, no stars coming back for them.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 14:29 pmH/9 52/50 K/9 52/46 ERA 3.29 34 years old. Walk year of his contract. If we can get a lot for him I'd jump all over the deal and send a private jet to pick up the future star prospect we get.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:45 pmMatz has a 5:1 strikeout to walk ratio, a .641 OPS against, and a 2.90 FIP. Every contender would want that in their bullpen.ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:35 pmMatz vastly overpaid in his walk year. Maton 34 years old and average stats. Both middle relievers. Helsley in his walk year. If they can get a lot I'd trade them without hesitation.An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:05 pmThey’d get a return on the first 3 without a doubtScotchMIrish wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 13:03 pmThe reason you want to trade Helsley, Matz, Maton, Fedde and Mikolas is the same reason they won't bring a lot in return.Youboughtit wrote: ↑22 Jul 2025 11:41 amMy prediction is Aranado stays, Wetherholt to 2B Donovan to LF and Burleson to RF. Noot, Walker, and Gorman are odd men out and on the block. Add Helsley, Matz, Fedde, Maton, and Mikolas and the Cardinals have a ton of pieces to move. Add a RH OF slugger to slit with Burleson
Maton makes nothing, has a 2.50 ERA and 2 HR allowed in his last 70 appearances, and has a .618 OPS against in 2025
I don’t think you know what “average stats” are.
I don’t know what your numbers (52/50, 52/46) are in reference to.
Edit:
Oh, so it was Matz's stats: he's 27% above league average by ERA+. He is considerably above average, mostly due to being well above average at limiting HRs and walks, two stats you just happened to leave out. Average ERA in MLB this season is 4.08, so 3.29 is significantly better than average.
AOF is correct, you don't know what average stats are.
The only name I see floated who would bring something significant in return is Donovan but I don't know why anybody would trade him.