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Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 13:51 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 12:41 pm

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 12:23 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 11:07 am

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 10:35 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 08:29 am

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 08:04 am Once again just bad logic and analysis! So which were they? Old washed up expensive players or guys of good value? You can't really have it both ways! The other clubs that .might have been interested thought they were of good value and could help them win big. Don't you want to win big too?

Without a much more solid foundation of cost controlled young players, the Cardinals were in no position to "win big" with, or without, Arenado and Goldschmidt. 2024 proved to be another exercise in mediocrity even with them.

The Cardinals could have interested teams who WERE in a position to win big in Arenado and Goldschmidt back in 2023, gotten quality prospects in return, and be further along in rebuilding their foundation.

So you never really answered the question. Were they valued pieces that could help a team win or "ball and chain" big contracts? Average is 81 wins 81 losses. This is baseball, an underperforming "average"team is a few timely hits, errors or mental mistakes from being an 88 win wildcard team. Like the Phillies in 2022 and past Cards clubs, that can mean big winning. On top of that this is big business, watch what happens to attendence and interest when you play the Burlesons, Vilade, Siani types. Your max will be teams hunting for wildcards not going deep, exactly what everyone has been hating on.

"A redbird in the hand is better than 2 (prospects)in the Busch."

They were valuable pieces to a team that was ready to "win now" in 2023. That, however, was not the Cardinals.

You trade them for prospects in 2023, rebuild your foundation of young cost controlled players, and then go out and find other Arenados and Goldschmidts that fill whatever holes you have at that time.

The Cardinals were ready to win in 2023! And 2024. On paper those were better clubs (minus the sell off). It was basically the same team without old Yadi and old Pujols but with young Willson Contreras. That team was picked by pundits to win the division, lots here were thinking 95 wins. They had the most players (8 I think) playing in the WBC, nobody knows how they ended up with 71 wins. Maybe the WBC messed things up, maybe Contreas was tipping pitches but that was a contending club. Had some holes to fill for 2024 Pitching which they did with Gray. Gibson and Lynn. A competitive team with 83 wins. If Goldy and Nado played close to their career averages could have won 90. The Cards were right, you are wrong and spoiled "fans" take too much for granted.

Goldy and Arenado type deals don't just always happen, that takes serious work, serious financial commitment and selling to other teams and the players to want to do it. And that's even if the owner wants to spend, which with all these ungrateful brats might not be a sure thing anymore. John King, Sagasse, Klofenstien etc are guys we can always go find, Goldy and Nado, not so much at those types of deals. Sad what so many people here believe.

Clearly they were not.

That's the mistake that fans make that a GM running the team should not - not being realistic about the team's actual talent level and what needs to be done to improve it.

The Cardinals are trying to learn that lesson and adjust in 2025, but they should have figured it out a year sooner.

This is more of the crazy talk, out of touch with reality, not knowing type stuff. 2023 Cards were like the Braves or Orioles this year, they're good, but sometimes it doesn't work out. That's how it goes sometimes. You seem to always get a few good surprises and a few disappointments. That's baseball. To blow up the model and change everything and overreact by calling for boycotting etc is ridiculous and unfair to management that did a good job on paper. The game isn't always played on paper or stats. It's played by people.

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 13:51 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 12:41 pm

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 12:23 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 11:07 am

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 10:35 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 08:29 am

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 08:04 am Once again just bad logic and analysis! So which were they? Old washed up expensive players or guys of good value? You can't really have it both ways! The other clubs that .might have been interested thought they were of good value and could help them win big. Don't you want to win big too?

Without a much more solid foundation of cost controlled young players, the Cardinals were in no position to "win big" with, or without, Arenado and Goldschmidt. 2024 proved to be another exercise in mediocrity even with them.

The Cardinals could have interested teams who WERE in a position to win big in Arenado and Goldschmidt back in 2023, gotten quality prospects in return, and be further along in rebuilding their foundation.

So you never really answered the question. Were they valued pieces that could help a team win or "ball and chain" big contracts? Average is 81 wins 81 losses. This is baseball, an underperforming "average"team is a few timely hits, errors or mental mistakes from being an 88 win wildcard team. Like the Phillies in 2022 and past Cards clubs, that can mean big winning. On top of that this is big business, watch what happens to attendence and interest when you play the Burlesons, Vilade, Siani types. Your max will be teams hunting for wildcards not going deep, exactly what everyone has been hating on.

"A redbird in the hand is better than 2 (prospects)in the Busch."

They were valuable pieces to a team that was ready to "win now" in 2023. That, however, was not the Cardinals.

You trade them for prospects in 2023, rebuild your foundation of young cost controlled players, and then go out and find other Arenados and Goldschmidts that fill whatever holes you have at that time.

The Cardinals were ready to win in 2023! And 2024. On paper those were better clubs (minus the sell off). It was basically the same team without old Yadi and old Pujols but with young Willson Contreras. That team was picked by pundits to win the division, lots here were thinking 95 wins. They had the most players (8 I think) playing in the WBC, nobody knows how they ended up with 71 wins. Maybe the WBC messed things up, maybe Contreas was tipping pitches but that was a contending club. Had some holes to fill for 2024 Pitching which they did with Gray. Gibson and Lynn. A competitive team with 83 wins. If Goldy and Nado played close to their career averages could have won 90. The Cards were right, you are wrong and spoiled "fans" take too much for granted.

Goldy and Arenado type deals don't just always happen, that takes serious work, serious financial commitment and selling to other teams and the players to want to do it. And that's even if the owner wants to spend, which with all these ungrateful brats might not be a sure thing anymore. John King, Sagasse, Klofenstien etc are guys we can always go find, Goldy and Nado, not so much at those types of deals. Sad what so many people here believe.

Clearly they were not.

That's the mistake that fans make that a GM running the team should not - not being realistic about the team's actual talent level and what needs to be done to improve it.

The Cardinals are trying to learn that lesson and adjust in 2025, but they should have figured it out a year sooner.

This is more of the crazy talk, out of touch with reality, not knowing type stuff. 2023 Cards were like the Braves or Orioles this year, they're good, but sometimes it doesn't work out. That's how it goes sometimes. You seem to always get a few good surprises and a few disappointments. That's baseball. To blow up the model and change everything and overreact by calling for boycotting etc is ridiculous and unfair to management that did a good job on paper. The game isn't always played on paper or stats. It's played by people.

Jatalk wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 21:42 pm

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 20:28 pm The reality of Nolan Arenado as a Cardinal is this fanbase is nuts. Arenado has been a good Cardinal. According to baseball reference he has a WAR of 17.8 with the club in 4+ seasons. If you take the standard of $7 to $10 million for 1 WAR as a free agent, along with including the Rockies picking up some of that tab and his pay going down the next 2 seasons he is okay being an average to slightly above league average hitter 100- 110 ops+ with an above average glove. Hopefully he can squeeze out another 6-7 WAR in his last 2+ years.

He is a good deal when you take into account he really made the team the true contender everyone wanted a few years back when he was putting up MVP caliber numbers. Sad how so many loons took that for granted and still whine about those teams "not trying" and the club being cheap. Nado is great, you all suck and spoiled.

So you are saying, right now, today he is worth what he is being paid?


So you are saying he is a good fit for a team making a move toward youth in a rebuild?


So you are saying it is best for him at his age to play for a team that cannot win a championship?

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑17 Jun 2025 16:02 pm

Jatalk wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 21:42 pm

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑16 Jun 2025 20:28 pm The reality of Nolan Arenado as a Cardinal is this fanbase is nuts. Arenado has been a good Cardinal. According to baseball reference he has a WAR of 17.8 with the club in 4+ seasons. If you take the standard of $7 to $10 million for 1 WAR as a free agent, along with including the Rockies picking up some of that tab and his pay going down the next 2 seasons he is okay being an average to slightly above league average hitter 100- 110 ops+ with an above average glove. Hopefully he can squeeze out another 6-7 WAR in his last 2+ years.

He is a good deal when you take into account he really made the team the true contender everyone wanted a few years back when he was putting up MVP caliber numbers. Sad how so many loons took that for granted and still whine about those teams "not trying" and the club being cheap. Nado is great, you all suck and spoiled.

So you are saying, right now, today he is worth what he is being paid?


So you are saying he is a good fit for a team making a move toward youth in a rebuild?


So you are saying it is best for him at his age to play for a team that cannot win a championship?

His salary is already declining as his expected stats slow down. So yeah, he's not that far off from being worth the $15M-$20M or so we owe him in 26/27 given baseball inflation. There are much worse deals out there.

Youth movement is misunderstood. We can and should have age balance.

And 3 years is plenty of time to turnaround and win a pennant even with him here.