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rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:33 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:28 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:07 am If you get to 500 HR or 3000, you're not an accumulator.

What a dumb post.

I see your reading comprehension hasn't gotten any better in time I've been away. "There are a few accumulators" (notably Lou Brock, Baines came up just short) that reached those milestones. Not every player that got there is an accumulator, most are all time greats.

Brock had the most SBs all time, you dolt.

He also had the most caught stealing all time, by some margin, I'll refrain from name calling. Reaching milestones comes with opportunity, and those opportunities have a cost (PAs, and outs). Brock stole a lot of bases and got a lot of hits. He used up a ton of outs to get that many hits and steal that many bases, but some want to just blissfully ignore those opportunity costs.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:43 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:33 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:28 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:07 am If you get to 500 HR or 3000, you're not an accumulator.

What a dumb post.

I see your reading comprehension hasn't gotten any better in time I've been away. "There are a few accumulators" (notably Lou Brock, Baines came up just short) that reached those milestones. Not every player that got there is an accumulator, most are all time greats.

Brock had the most SBs all time, you dolt.

He also had the most caught stealing all time, by some margin, I'll refrain from name calling. Reaching milestones comes with opportunity, and those opportunities have a cost (PAs, and outs). Brock stole a lot of bases and got a lot of hits. He used up a ton of outs to get that many hits and steal that many bases, but some want to just blissfully ignore those opportunity costs.

And when you achieve milestones, you get rewarded.

And his CS% wasnt egregious for the time and his contemporaries.

And, you’re a dolt.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:43 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:33 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:28 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:07 am If you get to 500 HR or 3000, you're not an accumulator.

What a dumb post.

I see your reading comprehension hasn't gotten any better in time I've been away. "There are a few accumulators" (notably Lou Brock, Baines came up just short) that reached those milestones. Not every player that got there is an accumulator, most are all time greats.

Brock had the most SBs all time, you dolt.

He also had the most caught stealing all time, by some margin, I'll refrain from name calling. Reaching milestones comes with opportunity, and those opportunities have a cost (PAs, and outs). Brock stole a lot of bases and got a lot of hits. He used up a ton of outs to get that many hits and steal that many bases, but some want to just blissfully ignore those opportunity costs.

And when you achieve milestones, you get rewarded.

And his CS% wasnt egregious for the time and his contemporaries.

And, you’re a dolt.

OldRed wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:07 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:43 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:33 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:28 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:07 am If you get to 500 HR or 3000, you're not an accumulator.

What a dumb post.

I see your reading comprehension hasn't gotten any better in time I've been away. "There are a few accumulators" (notably Lou Brock, Baines came up just short) that reached those milestones. Not every player that got there is an accumulator, most are all time greats.

Brock had the most SBs all time, you dolt.

He also had the most caught stealing all time, by some margin, I'll refrain from name calling. Reaching milestones comes with opportunity, and those opportunities have a cost (PAs, and outs). Brock stole a lot of bases and got a lot of hits. He used up a ton of outs to get that many hits and steal that many bases, but some want to just blissfully ignore those opportunity costs.

And when you achieve milestones, you get rewarded.

And his CS% wasnt egregious for the time and his contemporaries.

And, you’re a dolt.

I watched Brock his entire Cardinal career. He brought an excitement to the game, and it rubbed off on his teammates. Anyone who doesn't think Brock was one of the all-time greats must not have saw him play.

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:08 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:43 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:33 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:28 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:25 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 11:07 am If you get to 500 HR or 3000, you're not an accumulator.

What a dumb post.

I see your reading comprehension hasn't gotten any better in time I've been away. "There are a few accumulators" (notably Lou Brock, Baines came up just short) that reached those milestones. Not every player that got there is an accumulator, most are all time greats.

Brock had the most SBs all time, you dolt.

He also had the most caught stealing all time, by some margin, I'll refrain from name calling. Reaching milestones comes with opportunity, and those opportunities have a cost (PAs, and outs). Brock stole a lot of bases and got a lot of hits. He used up a ton of outs to get that many hits and steal that many bases, but some want to just blissfully ignore those opportunity costs.

And when you achieve milestones, you get rewarded.

And his CS% wasnt egregious for the time and his contemporaries.

And, you’re a dolt.

You're right it wasn't egregious. He was a very productive base runner, base stealer. His wSB ranks 9th all time. Vince Coleman is ahead of him to give some context. Base running doesn't create nearly as much value as people tend to think it does, at least compared to hitting and defense. Brock was an ok hitter, slightly above average for his career, an elite base runner, and a below average defender at the second lowest position in the defensive spectrum.

It took Brock 11,235 PAs to get 3,023 hits, and he gave back 307 times on base from getting caught stealing.

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑22 May 2025 06:25 am ON THIS DAY... May 22, 1976 - St. Louis' Reggie Smith hit three home runs - two right-handed and one left-handed - and drove in five runs in a 7-6 win over the Philadelphia Phillies. Smith's third homer came with two outs in the ninth and broke a 6-6 tie.

Got me thinking...should we consider Reggie Smith for the HOF?

Pros: 7 All Star, 64.6 fWAR, .855 OPS 137 OPS+, GG, 2,000+ hits, 300+ HR.

Cons: injuries limited his counting numbers. Only 7,033 career ABs limited total HR & RBI.

I remember we stole him from the Red Sox and stupidly gave him to the Dodgers. But he was fun to watch!

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:42 pm In discussing Brock, I am a proponent of adding net steals back into a players OPS. Brock had 631 net steals. If you add that back into his SLG and calculate his OPS it'd go up from .753 to .815.

One, I think Brock is a sure fire HOFer all ready, so I am not sure how he became part of the convo. Two, a player with 19 year career, .293 avg, 3000+ hits, 938 SBs, 5 To-10 MVP finishes, 2X WS, 6X AS, .343 OBP, and an extrapolated .815 OPS is undoubtedly a HOFer.

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:58 pm

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:42 pm In discussing Brock, I am a proponent of adding net steals back into a players OPS. Brock had 631 net steals. If you add that back into his SLG and calculate his OPS it'd go up from .753 to .815.

One, I think Brock is a sure fire HOFer all ready, so I am not sure how he became part of the convo. Two, a player with 19 year career, .293 avg, 3000+ hits, 938 SBs, 5 To-10 MVP finishes, 2X WS, 6X AS, .343 OBP, and an extrapolated .815 OPS is undoubtedly a HOFer.

You also need to reduce his OBP.

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:42 pm In discussing Brock, I am a proponent of adding net steals back into a players OPS. Brock had 631 net steals. If you add that back into his SLG and calculate his OPS it'd go up from .753 to .815.

One, I think Brock is a sure fire HOFer all ready, so I am not sure how he became part of the convo. Two, a player with 19 year career, .293 avg, 3000+ hits, 938 SBs, 5 To-10 MVP finishes, 2X WS, 6X AS, .343 OBP, and an extrapolated .815 OPS is undoubtedly a HOFer.

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:00 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:58 pm

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:42 pm In discussing Brock, I am a proponent of adding net steals back into a players OPS. Brock had 631 net steals. If you add that back into his SLG and calculate his OPS it'd go up from .753 to .815.

One, I think Brock is a sure fire HOFer all ready, so I am not sure how he became part of the convo. Two, a player with 19 year career, .293 avg, 3000+ hits, 938 SBs, 5 To-10 MVP finishes, 2X WS, 6X AS, .343 OBP, and an extrapolated .815 OPS is undoubtedly a HOFer.

You also need to reduce his OBP.

Why?

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:09 pm

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:00 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:58 pm

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:42 pm In discussing Brock, I am a proponent of adding net steals back into a players OPS. Brock had 631 net steals. If you add that back into his SLG and calculate his OPS it'd go up from .753 to .815.

One, I think Brock is a sure fire HOFer all ready, so I am not sure how he became part of the convo. Two, a player with 19 year career, .293 avg, 3000+ hits, 938 SBs, 5 To-10 MVP finishes, 2X WS, 6X AS, .343 OBP, and an extrapolated .815 OPS is undoubtedly a HOFer.

You also need to reduce his OBP.

Why?

Because he removed himself from being on base.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:06 pm From Brock's Hall of Fame page:

He was baseball’s most dangerous player for more than a decade, pressuring opponents with speed and daring on the basepaths.

Brock was recognized as one of baseball’s most complete – and clutch – players of the 20th Century.

Brock was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1985 in his first year of eligibility, becoming just the 20th player elected in his first year on the ballot.

https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/brock-lou

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:15 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:09 pm

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 13:00 pm

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:58 pm

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 12:42 pm In discussing Brock, I am a proponent of adding net steals back into a players OPS. Brock had 631 net steals. If you add that back into his SLG and calculate his OPS it'd go up from .753 to .815.

One, I think Brock is a sure fire HOFer all ready, so I am not sure how he became part of the convo. Two, a player with 19 year career, .293 avg, 3000+ hits, 938 SBs, 5 To-10 MVP finishes, 2X WS, 6X AS, .343 OBP, and an extrapolated .815 OPS is undoubtedly a HOFer.

You also need to reduce his OBP.

Why?

Because he removed himself from being on base.

Then you also have to punish players thrown out at 2B trying to extend a single to a double, a player trying to stretch a double to a triple, etc. Or any other time a players base running aggressiveness gets him out for that matter.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 May 2025 10:39 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 10:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 May 2025 10:19 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 09:29 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑22 May 2025 09:08 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 09:01 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 08:20 am

Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑22 May 2025 08:01 am

rbirules wrote: ↑22 May 2025 07:52 am

nighthawk wrote: ↑22 May 2025 06:46 am

Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑22 May 2025 06:25 am ON THIS DAY... May 22, 1976 - St. Louis' Reggie Smith hit three home runs - two right-handed and one left-handed - and drove in five runs in a 7-6 win over the Philadelphia Phillies. Smith's third homer came with two outs in the ninth and broke a 6-6 tie.

Got me thinking...should we consider Reggie Smith for the HOF?

Pros: 7 All Star, 64.6 fWAR, .855 OPS 137 OPS+, GG, 2,000+ hits, 300+ HR.

Cons: injuries limited his counting numbers. Only 7,033 career ABs limited total HR & RBI.

I remember we stole him from the Red Sox and stupidly gave him to the Dodgers. But he was fun to watch!

You wanna put Fred Lynn, Bernie Wiiliams, Paul O'Neill and Brian Giles in too? How about Bob Johnson or Moises Alou???

I think Smith is a borderline case, and a very underrated player. As soon as Harold Baines was voted in the flood gates were thrown open. If he's now a barometer for enshrinement then all of those players pass the test.

Baines was a mistake and should not be used as a barometer for the HOF IMO.

It is funny how Baines is referred to as a mistake. But yet, he's arguably 134 hits away from being first ballot material.

I know I'm in the minority, but I kind of agree with TLR's logic that the loss of time from the two strikes ('81 and '94, some lost time in '95) should be considered when evaluating his stats.

Would these numbers look better: 40 WAR / 500 Doubles /400 HR /3000 hits?

That's a similar "accumulator" path to the HOF that Brock took, except you have more HRs and a lot less steals. 40 WAR isn't close to HOF worthy, 60 WAR is a rough measuring stick for consideration (which gets Smith in the conversation), IMO.

Before advanced stats using an archaic method like 3000 hits or 500 HRs as automatic thresholds made some sense but they don't stand up to scrutiny now. Baines is one of the worst players in the hall, and given when he was inducted he was probably the worst choice in the history of the hall.

".. archaic method like 3000 hits or 500 HRs as automatic thresholds"

So getting 3,000 hits or hitting 500 HR's is now "archaic" rbi's?

Not hardly

It's an amazing CAREER achievement that only 33 PLAYERS (3,000+ hits) and only 28 PLAYERS (500+ HR's) have ever reached out of 20,887 players who have ever played MLB!

Those are a HELLUVA great achievements and 100% a true measuring stick for election into the Hall of Fame.

"archaic"

C'mon rib's

No, using 3,000 hits or 500 HRs as a sole benchmark to determine enshrinement is archaic when much better methods are available to evaluate a player. As I said, it was somewhat understandable many decades ago before we had a better understanding of baseball stats.

Again, not saying it's not an achievement to reach those milestones, it certainly is, but it should absolutely not be automatic HOF enshrinement. Many of the players that reached those milestones are absolutely HOF caliber players, but the milestone itself doesn't guarantee that.

Disagree

It's not archaic, it's a tremendous CAREER achievement that separates those 61 players from the other 20,826 players who've ever played MLB meaning they are the ELITE.

ANY Player who does something over the course of a LONG CAREER like garnering 3,000 hit's or hitting 500+ Home Runs is a Hall of Famer.

The Hall of Fame is about CAREER achievements.

While a stat like wRC+ is great for evaluating a players individual season, it's not the be all and end all when evaluating a players Hall of Fame resume.

Roger Maris has a career 126 wRC+ but his CAREER achievements aren't Hall of Fame worthty.

Again, great achievements, not automatic HOF inclusion though. There will obviously be huge overlap in the two.

With a significant amount of playing time wRC+ is great for looking at career achievement.

Why are we discussing Maris? 126 wRC+ is good (better than Murphy, on par with Enos), but not great (much worse than Smith's). Maris has 36 WAR, that doesn't even get him in the HOF conversation. 60-65 WAR gets you consideration.

Why did you bring up Slaughter?

Again

3000 hits or 500 Home Runs is absolutely 100% Hall of Fame inclusion.

Proof?

Only the steroid freaks and P. Rose aren't in after achieving those feats.

Smith and his wRC+ aren't