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Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:24 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.

Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.

You were saying the same thing about liebratore hes not a starter! Look at his rotation numbers and look at his bullpen numbers! Hes a reliever! It’s been proven hes not a starter!

riff raff wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:25 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:26 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 20:38 pm Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up

Thank C. Bloom

Mo/Oli had him slated for the pen' (again!) until the final week of STing when Bloom stepped in.

(He also was the one who slotted Noot into the leadoff spot after the two morons had him hitting third to start out STing)

Link?

An Old Friend wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 00:09 am

Rosie's Rule wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 23:08 pm And wouldn’t be ironic if the lopsided Randy Aroz trade actually turned out in the Cards favor?

Well ecleme declared the trade lost 3 years ago so that can’t be!

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:13 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:24 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.

Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.

You were saying the same thing about liebratore hes not a starter! Look at his rotation numbers and look at his bullpen numbers! Hes a reliever! It’s been proven hes not a starter!

No, what I said Ozzie was he couldn't get RHH'ers out at that time (2022-2024) to be an effective starter which was 100% true but that he was a very effective RP:

2022 vs RHHers:
.327 .395 .615 1.010

2023 vs RHHers:
.302 .377 .484 .862

2024 vs RHHers:
.263 .344 .479 .823

And you could see the improvement starting in 2024 as he gained confidence as a RP and began to attack RHHers.

That's carried over and in 2025 he's found a way to finally attack and get RHH'ers out:
.239 .239 .341 .580

I'm 100% happy he's starting now as it will unlock his true value and make him a valuable piece of the SR going forward but that's only happening because he gained confidence in the pen' last season that he could attack RHH'ers and had the pitches to finally get them out.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:42 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:13 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:24 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.

Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.

You were saying the same thing about liebratore hes not a starter! Look at his rotation numbers and look at his bullpen numbers! Hes a reliever! It’s been proven hes not a starter!

No, what I said Ozzie was he couldn't get RHH'ers out at that time (2022-2024) to be an effective starter which was 100% true but that he was a very effective RP:

2022 vs RHHers:
.327 .395 .615 1.010

2023 vs RHHers:
.302 .377 .484 .862

2024 vs RHHers:
.263 .344 .479 .823

And you could see the improvement starting in 2024 as he gained confidence as a RP and began to attack RHHers.

That's carried over and in 2025 he's found a way to finally attack and get RHH'ers out:
.239 .239 .341 .580

I'm 100% happy he's starting now as it will unlock his true value and make him a valuable piece of the SR going forward but that's only happening because he gained confidence in the pen' last season that he could attack RHH'ers and had the pitches to finally get them out.

Yea hard to learn to get righties out when you don’t get to face them consistently in the bullpen and even then only face one or two. If they had let him continue to start in the minors he could have worked on that. Same with pitchers with lack of secondary pitchers in the bullpen tjey can’t really work on it in the rotation they can. You rush to judgment on players way too fast and label them JAG or can’t start. You said he can’t start because he can’t get righthanders out

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 12:33 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:13 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:24 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.

Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.

You were saying the same thing about liebratore hes not a starter! Look at his rotation numbers and look at his bullpen numbers! Hes a reliever! It’s been proven hes not a starter!

No, what I said Ozzie was he couldn't get RHH'ers out at that time (2022-2024) to be an effective starter which was 100% true but that he was a very effective RP:

2022 vs RHHers:
.327 .395 .615 1.010

2023 vs RHHers:
.302 .377 .484 .862

2024 vs RHHers:
.263 .344 .479 .823

And you could see the improvement starting in 2024 as he gained confidence as a RP and began to attack RHHers.

That's carried over and in 2025 he's found a way to finally attack and get RHH'ers out:
.239 .239 .341 .580

I'm 100% happy he's starting now as it will unlock his true value and make him a valuable piece of the SR going forward but that's only happening because he gained confidence in the pen' last season that he could attack RHH'ers and had the pitches to finally get them out.

Yea hard to learn to get righties out when you don’t get to face them consistently in the bullpen and even then only face one or two. If they had let him continue to start in the minors he could have worked on that. Same with pitchers with lack of secondary pitchers in the bullpen tjey can’t really work on it in the rotation they can. You rush to judgment on players way too fast and label them JAG or can’t start. You said he can’t start because he can’t get righthanders out

Mo and his puppet manager kept yoyo-ing him, thankfully the guy who drafted him put him in the SR and told Oli he was there to stay.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 12:33 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:47 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 11:13 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:24 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:56 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:48 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.

That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.

Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.

You were saying the same thing about liebratore hes not a starter! Look at his rotation numbers and look at his bullpen numbers! Hes a reliever! It’s been proven hes not a starter!

No, what I said Ozzie was he couldn't get RHH'ers out at that time (2022-2024) to be an effective starter which was 100% true but that he was a very effective RP:

2022 vs RHHers:
.327 .395 .615 1.010

2023 vs RHHers:
.302 .377 .484 .862

2024 vs RHHers:
.263 .344 .479 .823

And you could see the improvement starting in 2024 as he gained confidence as a RP and began to attack RHHers.

That's carried over and in 2025 he's found a way to finally attack and get RHH'ers out:
.239 .239 .341 .580

I'm 100% happy he's starting now as it will unlock his true value and make him a valuable piece of the SR going forward but that's only happening because he gained confidence in the pen' last season that he could attack RHH'ers and had the pitches to finally get them out.

Yea hard to learn to get righties out when you don’t get to face them consistently in the bullpen and even then only face one or two. If they had let him continue to start in the minors he could have worked on that. Same with pitchers with lack of secondary pitchers in the bullpen tjey can’t really work on it in the rotation they can. You rush to judgment on players way too fast and label them JAG or can’t start. You said he can’t start because he can’t get righthanders out

Mo and his puppet manager kept yoyo-ing him, thankfully the guy who drafted him put him in the SR and told Oli he was there to stay.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:26 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 20:38 pm Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up

Thank C. Bloom

Mo/Oli had him slated for the pen' (again!) until the final week of STing when Bloom stepped in.

(He also was the one who slotted Noot into the leadoff spot after the two morons had him hitting third to start out STing)

dirtkicker wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 13:04 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:26 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 20:38 pm Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up

Thank C. Bloom

Mo/Oli had him slated for the pen' (again!) until the final week of STing when Bloom stepped in.

(He also was the one who slotted Noot into the leadoff spot after the two morons had him hitting third to start out STing)

So, Bloom is the one that's been hitting Willson 2nd and Burleson 5th all year?
Dude your entire premise s laughable.

alw80 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 12:24 pm Ok I may have to eat some crow on Libs in the rotation. He seems to have figured some things out.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 13:15 pm

dirtkicker wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 13:04 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:26 am

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 20:38 pm Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up

Thank C. Bloom

Mo/Oli had him slated for the pen' (again!) until the final week of STing when Bloom stepped in.

(He also was the one who slotted Noot into the leadoff spot after the two morons had him hitting third to start out STing)

So, Bloom is the one that's been hitting Willson 2nd and Burleson 5th all year?
Dude your entire premise s laughable.

And you're an a z z wipe

An Old Friend wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 10:07 am

jbrach wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 09:45 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:42 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?

The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.

Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.

Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.

Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.