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fullswing wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 21:45 pm How many superstars are there?

Los Angeles Dodgers: Shohei Ohtani, Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Yoshinobu Yamamoto.
New York Yankees: Aaron Judge, Gerrit Cole, Max Fried
New York Mets: Juan Soto, Francisco Lindor.
Kansas City Royals: Bobby Witt Jr..
Seattle Mariners: Julio Rodriguez, Cal Raleigh.
Baltimore Orioles: Gunnar Henderson.
Pittsburgh Pirates: Paul Skenes.
Detroit Tigers: Tarik Skubal.
Philadelphia Phillies: Zack Wheeler, Bryce Harper, Trea Turner, Kyle Schwarber.
San Diego Padres: Fernando Tatis Jr., Manny Machado, Mason Miller
Arizona Diamondbacks: Corbin Carroll, Ketel Marte.
Houston Astros: Jeremy Peña, Yordan Alvarez, Josh Hader.
Texas Rangers: Corey Seager.
Toronto Blue Jays: Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Bo Bichette
Minnesota Twins: Byron Buxton.
Cincinnati Reds: Elly De La Cruz, Hunter Greene
Boston Red Sox: Garrett Crochet.
Atlanta Braves: Ronald Acuna, Ozzie Albies, Matt Olson, Austin Riley.
Tampa Bay Rays: Junior Caminero.
Las Vegas As: Nick Kurtz.
Milwaukee Brewers: Jackson Churio, Jacob Misiorowski
Chicago Cubs: Kyle Tucker.
Cleveland Guardians: Jose Ramirez.
Load Angeles Angels: Mike Trout.
Washington Nationals: James Wood.

Just a partial list off top of my head. All all star top 3 at position. And no Winn will never be anywhere close.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

And yet some posters want us to follow a Billy Beane/Tampa Bay type no stars approach and just go as cheap as possible across the board.

Even if that produces some wins some years with an iPad paint by numbers approach, I oppose that idea because it does not draw fans or revenue. Tampa Bay once had attendance under 19,000 for a playoff game.

There are much better ways to build a winner. And a lot more fun in both championship and second place seasons

Fun…the whole point of it all, and the word the tank crowd completely disregards.

People live for it everyday yet they say we need to wait 5 or so more years because the billionaire owner (now with revenue sharing) can’t afford it.

I can agree with them on one thing. No more old stars. Busch stadium doesn’t need to be the pasture where they are put out to as their talents wane.

Where our opinions differ is I say ANY trade for ANY of our precious prospects that can net us a young star should be pursued aggressively anytime the opportunity presents itself. With complete disregard of where our farm might be ranked by some prospect expert next year or where we are in some rebuild process. If we can trade any 5 question marks for 1 proven young star, I say go for it.

If there aren’t any available, then sign the best guys willing to take short term high AAV deals and fill out the roster with professionals and mix in prospects who have actually earned their way, not just because of draft status. This is the approach any prudent GM should take unless he’s handcuffed by cheap ownership.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 23:33 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

And yet some posters want us to follow a Billy Beane/Tampa Bay type no stars approach and just go as cheap as possible across the board.

Even if that produces some wins some years with an iPad paint by numbers approach, I oppose that idea because it does not draw fans or revenue. Tampa Bay once had attendance under 19,000 for a playoff game.

There are much better ways to build a winner. And a lot more fun in both championship and second place seasons

Fun…the whole point of it all, and the word the tank crowd completely disregards.

People live for it everyday yet they say we need to wait 5 or so more years because the billionaire owner (now with revenue sharing) can’t afford it.

I can however agree with them on one thing. No more old (and inevitably declining) stars. Busch stadium doesn’t need to be the pasture where they are put out to as their talents wane.

Where our opinions differ is that I say ANY trade at ANY time for ANY of our precious prospects that can net us a young star should be pursued aggressively anytime the opportunity presents itself. With complete disregard of where our farm might be ranked by some prospect expert next year or where we are in some rebuild process.

If we can trade any 5 question marks for 1 proven young star, I say go for it.

If there aren’t any young stars available, then sign the best guys available that are willing to take short term high AAV deals and fill out the roster with professionals and mix in the prospects who have actually earned their way, not just because of draft status. This is the approach any prudent GM should take unless he’s handcuffed by cheap ownership.

Skubal is available. 2 time cy young winner. No superstar will take short term. That’s the problem. Cardinals want to win on term AND AAV. No FA will come here until the owner spends into $200m and overpays for a specific elite young superstar to anchor the team, who? Idk. But other teams have them. See list above.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 23:45 pm

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 23:33 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

And yet some posters want us to follow a Billy Beane/Tampa Bay type no stars approach and just go as cheap as possible across the board.

Even if that produces some wins some years with an iPad paint by numbers approach, I oppose that idea because it does not draw fans or revenue. Tampa Bay once had attendance under 19,000 for a playoff game.

There are much better ways to build a winner. And a lot more fun in both championship and second place seasons

Fun…the whole point of it all, and the word the tank crowd completely disregards.

People live for it everyday yet they say we need to wait 5 or so more years because the billionaire owner (now with revenue sharing) can’t afford it.

I can however agree with them on one thing. No more old (and inevitably declining) stars. Busch stadium doesn’t need to be the pasture where they are put out to as their talents wane.

Where our opinions differ is that I say ANY trade at ANY time for ANY of our precious prospects that can net us a young star should be pursued aggressively anytime the opportunity presents itself. With complete disregard of where our farm might be ranked by some prospect expert next year or where we are in some rebuild process.

If we can trade any 5 question marks for 1 proven young star, I say go for it.

If there aren’t any young stars available, then sign the best guys available that are willing to take short term high AAV deals and fill out the roster with professionals and mix in the prospects who have actually earned their way, not just because of draft status. This is the approach any prudent GM should take unless he’s handcuffed by cheap ownership.

Skubal is available. 2 time cy young winner. No superstar will take short term. That’s the problem. Cardinals want to win on term AND AAV. No FA will come here until the owner spends into $200m and overpays for a specific elite young superstar to anchor the team, who? Idk. But other teams have them. See list above.

You’re right, superstars won’t take the short term deals but I meant either pursue trades for them or get the next tier free agents as stopgaps (that can actually at least perform) until the star acquisitions can be made via trade or free agency.

Field a winner and make it a desirable destination again. I know it won’t happen overnight but I just don’t believe a winning culture will be molded from a losing one, or tanking. You have to show a commitment to winning and not be so tolerant of losing.

I’m also with you on the spending aspect too, so long as it is younger free agents. No reason to be overly cheap and try to win on term and AAV with EVERY single player on the roster.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 22:44 pm

fullswing wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 21:45 pm How many superstars are there?

Los Angeles Dodgers: Shohei Ohtani, Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Yoshinobu Yamamoto.
New York Yankees: Aaron Judge, Gerrit Cole, Max Fried
New York Mets: Juan Soto, Francisco Lindor.
Kansas City Royals: Bobby Witt Jr..
Seattle Mariners: Julio Rodriguez, Cal Raleigh.
Baltimore Orioles: Gunnar Henderson.
Pittsburgh Pirates: Paul Skenes.
Detroit Tigers: Tarik Skubal.
Philadelphia Phillies: Zack Wheeler, Bryce Harper, Trea Turner, Kyle Schwarber.
San Diego Padres: Fernando Tatis Jr., Manny Machado, Mason Miller
Arizona Diamondbacks: Corbin Carroll, Ketel Marte.
Houston Astros: Jeremy Peña, Yordan Alvarez, Josh Hader.
Texas Rangers: Corey Seager.
Toronto Blue Jays: Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Bo Bichette
Minnesota Twins: Byron Buxton.
Cincinnati Reds: Elly De La Cruz, Hunter Greene
Boston Red Sox: Garrett Crochet.
Atlanta Braves: Ronald Acuna, Ozzie Albies, Matt Olson, Austin Riley.
Tampa Bay Rays: Junior Caminero.
Las Vegas As: Nick Kurtz.
Milwaukee Brewers: Jackson Churio, Jacob Misiorowski
Chicago Cubs: Kyle Tucker.
Cleveland Guardians: Jose Ramirez.
Load Angeles Angels: Mike Trout.
Washington Nationals: James Wood.

Just a partial list off top of my head. All all star top 3 at position. And no Winn will never be anywhere close.

Thanks!

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 15:37 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

Yes, they will - eventually - have to sign 1, 2, 3 FAs who are "stars" or "superstars." They just don't have to do it this offseason.

Develop the necessary core of young, cost controlled players and THEN start adding "stars" or "superstars" via FA signings.

Well they need to do it when they want fans to attend games. That’s what the post was about. The longer they wait the more $ they will loose

Teams that go through these deep rebuilds - Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. - all see significant attendance drops. It's expected.

Goldfan wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 17:25 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

Yes, they will - eventually - have to sign 1, 2, 3 FAs who are "stars" or "superstars." They just don't have to do it this offseason.

Develop the necessary core of young, cost controlled players and THEN start adding "stars" or "superstars" via FA signings.

Matt, we’ve been through this before….
We have a young cheap core NOW. Do you actually think any time soon Bloom farm is going to produce players better than
Herrera
JJ
Winn
Burly
Donny
Gorman(perhaps he can make more contact)
Scott(defense in CF)
Then you need a couple stars

What/Where/Who are these completely “new young core” you always refer to that are going to replace what I listed?

No, they DON'T have a sufficient, critical mass of young talent.

You DON'T yet have Wetherholt making the jump to the majors and actually being a 3, 4, etc. fWAR player.

You DON'T yet have Doyle and/or Mathews making the jump to the major and actually being a 3, 4, etc. pitcher.

See those steps through first, then add from outside the organization to "win now."

Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand that they are tearing it all down?

Jeff Goldblum wrote: ↑10 Jan 2026 05:45 am Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand that they are tearing it all down?

Maybe it’s not the understanding of said event; maybe it’s the disbelief that such an event occurred with us.

Is there a difference.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 22:44 pm

fullswing wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 21:45 pm How many superstars are there?

Los Angeles Dodgers: Shohei Ohtani, Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Yoshinobu Yamamoto.
New York Yankees: Aaron Judge, Gerrit Cole, Max Fried
New York Mets: Juan Soto, Francisco Lindor.
Kansas City Royals: Bobby Witt Jr..
Seattle Mariners: Julio Rodriguez, Cal Raleigh.
Baltimore Orioles: Gunnar Henderson.
Pittsburgh Pirates: Paul Skenes.
Detroit Tigers: Tarik Skubal.
Philadelphia Phillies: Zack Wheeler, Bryce Harper, Trea Turner, Kyle Schwarber.
San Diego Padres: Fernando Tatis Jr., Manny Machado, Mason Miller
Arizona Diamondbacks: Corbin Carroll, Ketel Marte.
Houston Astros: Jeremy Peña, Yordan Alvarez, Josh Hader.
Texas Rangers: Corey Seager.
Toronto Blue Jays: Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Bo Bichette
Minnesota Twins: Byron Buxton.
Cincinnati Reds: Elly De La Cruz, Hunter Greene
Boston Red Sox: Garrett Crochet.
Atlanta Braves: Ronald Acuna, Ozzie Albies, Matt Olson, Austin Riley.
Tampa Bay Rays: Junior Caminero.
Las Vegas As: Nick Kurtz.
Milwaukee Brewers: Jackson Churio, Jacob Misiorowski
Chicago Cubs: Kyle Tucker.
Cleveland Guardians: Jose Ramirez.
Load Angeles Angels: Mike Trout.
Washington Nationals: James Wood.

Just a partial list off top of my head. All all star top 3 at position. And no Winn will never be anywhere close.

My initial thought was you are too liberal with what is a superstar for me. Second though was and yet still no cardinals.

I don't know that it's being ignored as much as they haven't drafted and developed such a player in many years.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑10 Jan 2026 05:44 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 17:25 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

Yes, they will - eventually - have to sign 1, 2, 3 FAs who are "stars" or "superstars." They just don't have to do it this offseason.

Develop the necessary core of young, cost controlled players and THEN start adding "stars" or "superstars" via FA signings.

Matt, we’ve been through this before….
We have a young cheap core NOW. Do you actually think any time soon Bloom farm is going to produce players better than
Herrera
JJ
Winn
Burly
Donny
Gorman(perhaps he can make more contact)
Scott(defense in CF)
Then you need a couple stars

What/Where/Who are these completely “new young core” you always refer to that are going to replace what I listed?

No, they DON'T have a sufficient, critical mass of young talent.

You DON'T yet have Wetherholt making the jump to the majors and actually being a 3, 4, etc. fWAR player.

You DON'T yet have Doyle and/or Mathews making the jump to the major and actually being a 3, 4, etc. pitcher.

See those steps through first, then add from outside the organization to "win now."

You need 9 starters every game. There they are. Again who, what, where are you replacing (Herrera,25-30HR), (Burly 25HR), (JJ, .290), (Winn, .280), (Donny, .290), and hopefully Gorman hits some HR with Scott playing GG D. You add some bats like I’ve stated and you can win ballgames.
Cards Nation has PTSD from watching MO make one bad decision after another and now think that acquiring real talent will just continue that spiral

Goldfan wrote: ↑10 Jan 2026 07:50 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑10 Jan 2026 05:44 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 17:25 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:51 pm

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 14:44 pm Yes, this is a major problem. We need one or more superstars, and we need to make a long-term commitment to them to solidify fan loyalty from season to season. The game is human and these factors do matter.

Yes, they will - eventually - have to sign 1, 2, 3 FAs who are "stars" or "superstars." They just don't have to do it this offseason.

Develop the necessary core of young, cost controlled players and THEN start adding "stars" or "superstars" via FA signings.

Matt, we’ve been through this before….
We have a young cheap core NOW. Do you actually think any time soon Bloom farm is going to produce players better than
Herrera
JJ
Winn
Burly
Donny
Gorman(perhaps he can make more contact)
Scott(defense in CF)
Then you need a couple stars

What/Where/Who are these completely “new young core” you always refer to that are going to replace what I listed?

No, they DON'T have a sufficient, critical mass of young talent.

You DON'T yet have Wetherholt making the jump to the majors and actually being a 3, 4, etc. fWAR player.

You DON'T yet have Doyle and/or Mathews making the jump to the major and actually being a 3, 4, etc. pitcher.

See those steps through first, then add from outside the organization to "win now."

You need 9 starters every game. There they are. Again who, what, where are you replacing (Herrera,25-30HR), (Burly 25HR), (JJ, .290), (Winn, .280), (Donny, .290), and hopefully Gorman hits some HR with Scott playing GG D. You add some bats like I’ve stated and you can win ballgames.
Cards Nation has PTSD from watching MO make one bad decision after another and now think that acquiring real talent will just continue that spiral

The current roster may be a 70, 72, 74 win roster in 2026.

You could spend another $80 to $100 million in 2026 to try to win 80, 82, 84 games ($8-$10 million per win).

So you'd "win some more games" and still be mediocre. And, to spend that additional $80 to $100 million, you are probably not just signing guys to 1-2 year contracts. You are making long term commitments to older players who will likely be in decline in 2028, 2029, 2030, etc. when you DO have a sufficient, critical mass of young talent. That's the problem.

Yes, they could/should spend more money this year on veterans like May, Stanek, etc. on short term, 1-2 year contracts.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑10 Jan 2026 06:49 am I don't know that it's being ignored as much as they haven't drafted and developed such a player in many years.

It seems they have been able to identify core players to help build mortar to create a solidifying base, but as you stated, they haven't been able to draft and or develop that player. I personally think it's tied to the draft more, those players tend to surface quickly without much assistance.

The Cardinals are simply doing what Houston, Atlanta, and Philadelphia have done.

Houston was 86-75 in 2008, with 2.8 million in attendance and $100 million in payroll (12th in MLB).
By 2013, they had dropped to 51-111, with 1.7 million in attendance and a $29 million payroll (30th in MLB).
By 2017, they were 101-61, with 2.4 million in attendance and a $134 million payroll (18th in MLB).
More winning, higher attendance, and higher payrolls followed.

Atlanta was 96-66 in 2013, with 2.5 million in attendance and $95 million in payroll (16th in MLB).
By 2015, they had dropped to 67-95, with 2.0 million in attendance and a $107 million payroll (22nd in MLB).
By 2019, they were 97-65, with 2.7 million in attendance and a $136 million payroll (14th in MLB).
More winning, higher attendance, and higher payrolls followed.

Philadelphia was 81-81 in 2012, with 3.6 million in attendance and $169 million in payroll (2nd in MLB).
By 2017, they had dropped to 66-96, with 1.9 million in attendance and a $109 million payroll (21st in MLB).
By 2019, they were 81-81, with 2.7 million in attendance and a $161 million payroll (10th in MLB).
More winning, higher attendance, and higher payrolls followed.

We can hope the Cardinals path back is shorter, like Atlanta's, rather than longer like Houston's or Philadelphia's. However, the Cardinals' problem is that they should have actively started this process back in 2023 when they should have done everything possible to trade Goldschmidt, Arenado, etc. As is it, they will appear to have drawn this out by the two years they wasted in 2024 and 2025.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 22:44 pm

fullswing wrote: ↑09 Jan 2026 21:45 pm How many superstars are there?

Los Angeles Dodgers: Shohei Ohtani, Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Yoshinobu Yamamoto.
New York Yankees: Aaron Judge, Gerrit Cole, Max Fried
New York Mets: Juan Soto, Francisco Lindor.
Kansas City Royals: Bobby Witt Jr..
Seattle Mariners: Julio Rodriguez, Cal Raleigh.
Baltimore Orioles: Gunnar Henderson.
Pittsburgh Pirates: Paul Skenes.
Detroit Tigers: Tarik Skubal.
Philadelphia Phillies: Zack Wheeler, Bryce Harper, Trea Turner, Kyle Schwarber.
San Diego Padres: Fernando Tatis Jr., Manny Machado, Mason Miller
Arizona Diamondbacks: Corbin Carroll, Ketel Marte.
Houston Astros: Jeremy Peña, Yordan Alvarez, Josh Hader.
Texas Rangers: Corey Seager.
Toronto Blue Jays: Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Bo Bichette
Minnesota Twins: Byron Buxton.
Cincinnati Reds: Elly De La Cruz, Hunter Greene
Boston Red Sox: Garrett Crochet.
Atlanta Braves: Ronald Acuna, Ozzie Albies, Matt Olson, Austin Riley.
Tampa Bay Rays: Junior Caminero.
Las Vegas As: Nick Kurtz.
Milwaukee Brewers: Jackson Churio, Jacob Misiorowski
Chicago Cubs: Kyle Tucker.
Cleveland Guardians: Jose Ramirez.
Load Angeles Angels: Mike Trout.
Washington Nationals: James Wood.

Just a partial list off top of my head. All all star top 3 at position. And no Winn will never be anywhere close.

Winn is already close. GG SS . Willing to play without being 100%. He gets back to the approach at the plate he had in 24 he is a superstar just as much as most of those guys on your list.