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Cranny wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:09 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:11 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:49 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:45 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:38 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:32 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:24 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:20 am This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

Arenado on the infield makes for a better team in the field. What would you say if he rebounded and hit 250 ish, living on singles and shots down the line and in the gaps.

It’s just as likely he has a better year. And young staff needs all it can get from its defense. Whole point of pitching.

I've posted the same a couple times BDog, perhaps being healthy now he bounces back to a .725-.750 OPS while still playing above average defense.

But what this team really needs is a powerhitter.

Or two.

But since that power hitter isn’t at third both in house or by way of trade, then we must settle for defense next. And as mentioned, not many better. Still.

Or two for sure.

Bloom has really got his work cut out for him finding one, let alone two and they need to play either in the OF or corner infield!

If only you believe like I believe, baby (If only you believe like I believe)
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby (If only you believe in miracles)
So would I
If only you believe like I believe, baby (If only you believe like I believe)
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby (If only you believe in miracles)
So would I

What the state of the team shows is how far we have fallen. It’s one thing to fall into a hole with an easier recovery. It’s another to get neck deep. We are neck deep.

Mo left C. Bloom a total mess, from the lowest minor league team to the Cardinals.

If that's the case, why was the Cardinals minor league system recently rated so high?

Bloom has been working two years to fix it that has helped

Maybe this has been brought up but I'm not going to go through every Donovan thread here.

Does the fact the Cardinals have made it clear they are in tear down payroll mode make it harder for Bloom to get good value for Donovan?

Teams may well believe that they can squeeze Bloom because they know when push comes to shove the Cardinals aren't going to do a major contract for Donovan and teams can bide their time.

May or may not be a factor just a thought.

C keep Pages (C +2), let Herrera DH (C -3)
1B keep Contreras (1B +4), trade Burleson (1B -1)
2B try Wetherholt, trade Gorman (2B -3)
SS keep Winn (SS +22)
3B keep Arenado (3B +15), trade Gorman (3B -6)
OF keep Scott CF (OF +14), Church RF (OF +4), Nootbar (OF -2), trade Walker (OF -22), Burleson (OF -17), Donovan (OF -3)

Projected 2026 defense of departures saves 28.2 runs
-9.3 Burleson
-9.2 Walker
-8.8 Gorman
-0.9 Donovan

How bad will the offense become as a result? Well, maybe not much different!

• We hope Nootbar can hit like Burleson; not a stretch; maybe Noot gets better without heel pain.
• We hope Church can hit like Walker; not a stretch; Walker has been awful
• We hope Arenado can hit like Gorman; not a stretch; Gorman has been awful
• We hope Wetherholt can hit like Donovan; not a stretch; Wetherholt should hit but we shall see.

Hmmm. Maybe we SHOULD play a good defense and hope they can hit.
Seems more likely to succeed than playing an equally poor offense that we know can't field.

BTW: I"m not trading Donovan because of his defense, I'm just assuming he's gone. The other 3 I'm trading due to bad defense as suggested by the OP.

11WSChamps wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:15 pm Maybe this has been brought up but I'm not going to go through every Donovan thread here.

Does the fact the Cardinals have made it clear they are in tear down payroll mode make it harder for Bloom to get good value for Donovan?

Teams may well believe that they can squeeze Bloom because they know when push comes to shove the Cardinals aren't going to do a major contract for Donovan and teams can bide their time.

May or may not be a factor just a thought.

Not a bit because bloom has also made it clear they don’t have to trade Donovan and would only trade him if they are overwhelmed and other teams know it’s true because Donovan has two years of control left and isn’t making a lot of money. Also even if teams didn’t know the cardinals were in tear down mode they would have certainly known after the cardinals traded gray. If bloom had said we aren’t in Tear down mode it would have had the opposite effect and the cardinals wouldn’t be getting as much interest in their players because they would think if the cardinals aren’t tearing down they will keep arenado and Donovan and Contreras and Jo Jo

cardstatman wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:25 pm C keep Pages (C +2), let Herrera DH (C -3)
1B keep Contreras (1B +4), trade Burleson (1B -1)
2B try Wetherholt, trade Gorman (2B -3)
SS keep Winn (SS +22)
3B keep Arenado (3B +15), trade Gorman (3B -6)
OF keep Scott CF (OF +14), Church RF (OF +4), Nootbar (OF -2), trade Walker (OF -22), Burleson (OF -17), Donovan (OF -3)

Projected 2026 defense of departures saves 28.2 runs
-9.3 Burleson
-9.2 Walker
-8.8 Gorman
-0.9 Donovan

How bad will the offense become as a result? Well, maybe not much different!

• We hope Nootbar can hit like Burleson; not a stretch; maybe Noot gets better without heel pain.
• We hope Church can hit like Walker; not a stretch; Walker has been awful
• We hope Arenado can hit like Gorman; not a stretch; Gorman has been awful
• We hope Wetherholt can hit like Donovan; not a stretch; Wetherholt should hit but we shall see.

Hmmm. Maybe we SHOULD play a good defense and hope they can hit.
Seems more likely to succeed than playing an equally poor offense that we know can't field.

BTW: I"m not trading Donovan because of his defense, I'm just assuming he's gone. The other 3 I'm trading due to bad defense as suggested by the OP.

They have to move Arenado.
How many games do we expect out of him, the 150 game horse still. Currently he can be sold with hope of being a 2 WAR player. Almost impossible to expect that from a broken spirit in StL. A slow singles hitter has low value.

JJ has tremendous hype understood. He is also a candidate for a top 3 ROY status. Whoever he replaces there a strong chance he is better on both sides of the ball. He should replace the player that is worse on both sides of the ball for greatest impact on the roster.
Right now that is Gorman.

If Saggese or someone else Fermin can play average 2B, Donovan defense is covered. Can't as of today put Herrera at C and say defense..you didn't..but he needs a spot is 1B the spot?

I'd add Baez to the outfield mix open competition

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:02 am I knew a guy who had a theory on baseball. You need 2 of 3 things to win. Defense, offense and pitching. Of course that assumes a good manager.

If you focus on defense do we have the pitching or offense to win?

I says Offense + Defense with average but solid pitching can take you a long ways. As long as Tony is your manager.

Look at 2004 - we had 5 GG caliber starters, an elite hitting OF of Edmonds, Sanders, Walker, plus Rolen and Pujols and Edgar on the IF. So much offense and gloves.

But our pitching staff was merely Carp plus 4 innings eaters who posted WHIPs of 1.3 to 1.43. Yet they won games with that offense and defense backing them - Morris won 15 games with a Mikolas-like ERA of nearly 5. He also pitched 202 IP.

Then Carp got hurt and missed the playoffs and those innings eaters plus the bats still won a pennant without an Ace.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:55 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:11 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:49 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:45 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:38 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:32 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:24 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 10:20 am This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

Arenado on the infield makes for a better team in the field. What would you say if he rebounded and hit 250 ish, living on singles and shots down the line and in the gaps.

It’s just as likely he has a better year. And young staff needs all it can get from its defense. Whole point of pitching.

I've posted the same a couple times BDog, perhaps being healthy now he bounces back to a .725-.750 OPS while still playing above average defense.

But what this team really needs is a powerhitter.

Or two.

But since that power hitter isn’t at third both in house or by way of trade, then we must settle for defense next. And as mentioned, not many better. Still.

Or two for sure.

Bloom has really got his work cut out for him finding one, let alone two and they need to play either in the OF or corner infield!

If only you believe like I believe, baby (If only you believe like I believe)
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby (If only you believe in miracles)
So would I
If only you believe like I believe, baby (If only you believe like I believe)
We'd get by
If only you believe in miracles, baby (If only you believe in miracles)
So would I

What the state of the team shows is how far we have fallen. It’s one thing to fall into a hole with an easier recovery. It’s another to get neck deep. We are neck deep.

Mo left C. Bloom a total mess, from the lowest minor league team to the Cardinals.

How bad is it? Don’t call your surgeon even he says it’s late.

It is not your lungs this time
But your heart holds your fate.
Don't give me my money back
Don't want it anymore

I came for you

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 17:43 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:02 am I knew a guy who had a theory on baseball. You need 2 of 3 things to win. Defense, offense and pitching. Of course that assumes a good manager.

If you focus on defense do we have the pitching or offense to win?

I says Offense + Defense with average but solid pitching can take you a long ways. As long as Tony is your manager.

Look at 2004 - we had 5 GG caliber starters, an elite hitting OF of Edmonds, Sanders, Walker, plus Rolen and Pujols and Edgar on the IF. So much offense and gloves.

But our pitching staff was merely Carp plus 4 innings eaters who posted WHIPs of 1.3 to 1.43. Yet they won games with that offense and defense backing them - Morris won 15 games with a Mikolas-like ERA of nearly 5. He also pitched 202 IP.

Then Carp got hurt and missed the playoffs and those innings eaters plus the bats still won a pennant without an Ace.

That aligns with my buddy's theory. I added the part about having a good manager. I would contend the only Cardinals manager I can think of who would have won the 1982 world series with that team was Herzog. 16th in team OPS. Herzog knew how to win with pitching, defense, contact hitters and speed.

11WSChamps wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:15 pm Maybe this has been brought up but I'm not going to go through every Donovan thread here.

Does the fact the Cardinals have made it clear they are in tear down payroll mode make it harder for Bloom to get good value for Donovan?

Teams may well believe that they can squeeze Bloom because they know when push comes to shove the Cardinals aren't going to do a major contract for Donovan and teams can bide their time.

May or may not be a factor just a thought.

One reason the Cardinals did not trade Fedde or Helsley last offseason was they were not willing to take pennies on the dollar. Teams came around wanting to pay garage sale prices, thinking the Cardinals were having a fire sale. Unlike other teams in similar circumstances, neither Mo or Bloom are under orders to cut salary. One reason teams like the Pirates are on a perpetual rebuild is their only goal is to unload salary, rather than get quality pieces in return. Bloom will not trade anyone not named Arenado for anything less than what they assess the value to be.

Red7 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:06 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:15 pm Maybe this has been brought up but I'm not going to go through every Donovan thread here.

Does the fact the Cardinals have made it clear they are in tear down payroll mode make it harder for Bloom to get good value for Donovan?

Teams may well believe that they can squeeze Bloom because they know when push comes to shove the Cardinals aren't going to do a major contract for Donovan and teams can bide their time.

May or may not be a factor just a thought.

One reason the Cardinals did not trade Fedde or Helsley last offseason was they were not willing to take pennies on the dollar. Teams came around wanting to pay garage sale prices, thinking the Cardinals were having a fire sale. Unlike other teams in similar circumstances, neither Mo or Bloom are under orders to cut salary. One reason teams like the Pirates are on a perpetual rebuild is their only goal is to unload salary, rather than get quality pieces in return. Bloom will not trade anyone not named Arenado for anything less than what they assess the value to be.

No the only reason they weren’t traded was because mo like Mel and several other posters thought the Cardinals were good enough to contend they were all wrong they weren’t and mo waited until helsleys value was lower and Fedde had no trade value. Mo even said in the offseason he wasn’t interested in trading helsley

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 15:07 pm

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 14:59 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 14:52 pm

Pura Vida wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 13:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:02 am I knew a guy who had a theory on baseball. You need 2 of 3 things to win. Defense, offense and pitching. Of course that assumes a good manager.

If you focus on defense do we have the pitching or offense to win?

Whitney ball was strong pitching, great defense, speed, manufacture runs.

Correct - and contact hitters were part of that. 3-2 count he sent the runner because he had contact hitters and speed. Perfect example of baseball being a symphony and that's why I don't place a lot of value if some the analytics things like war.

...and they are about to trade just about the best contact hitter on the team in Donovan. Let's hope JJ pans out and hits for both avg and some power.

I don't agree with that trade. Seems to me you keep him and build around him but apparently this is a complete dump. I'd re-sign Donovan but Bloom wants new toys to play with.

I don't agree with it either. He represents Cardinals' baseball to me and is someone to build around. Plays multiple positions and if they trade him and move laterally....what's the point!

Pura Vida wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 15:07 pm

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 14:59 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 14:52 pm

Pura Vida wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 13:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:02 am I knew a guy who had a theory on baseball. You need 2 of 3 things to win. Defense, offense and pitching. Of course that assumes a good manager.

If you focus on defense do we have the pitching or offense to win?

Whitney ball was strong pitching, great defense, speed, manufacture runs.

Correct - and contact hitters were part of that. 3-2 count he sent the runner because he had contact hitters and speed. Perfect example of baseball being a symphony and that's why I don't place a lot of value if some the analytics things like war.

...and they are about to trade just about the best contact hitter on the team in Donovan. Let's hope JJ pans out and hits for both avg and some power.

I don't agree with that trade. Seems to me you keep him and build around him but apparently this is a complete dump. I'd re-sign Donovan but Bloom wants new toys to play with.

I don't agree with it either. He represents Cardinals' baseball to me and is someone to build around. Plays multiple positions and if they trade him and move laterally....what's the point!

He had better get a lot in the deal. It's the best trade chip he has.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:43 pm

Pura Vida wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 15:07 pm

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 14:59 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 14:52 pm

Pura Vida wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 13:06 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 11:02 am I knew a guy who had a theory on baseball. You need 2 of 3 things to win. Defense, offense and pitching. Of course that assumes a good manager.

If you focus on defense do we have the pitching or offense to win?

Whitney ball was strong pitching, great defense, speed, manufacture runs.

Correct - and contact hitters were part of that. 3-2 count he sent the runner because he had contact hitters and speed. Perfect example of baseball being a symphony and that's why I don't place a lot of value if some the analytics things like war.

...and they are about to trade just about the best contact hitter on the team in Donovan. Let's hope JJ pans out and hits for both avg and some power.

I don't agree with that trade. Seems to me you keep him and build around him but apparently this is a complete dump. I'd re-sign Donovan but Bloom wants new toys to play with.

I don't agree with it either. He represents Cardinals' baseball to me and is someone to build around. Plays multiple positions and if they trade him and move laterally....what's the point!

He had better get a lot in the deal. It's the best trade chip he has.

I see this often.
Is he the best trade chip though? He has the largest demand of the players
known to be in trades but number of teams doesn't really mean best return.
His appeal increases when teams looking for any position that he can play shows interest.

I am not sure that the return will be a lot higher than Gray brought. Burleson has
one more control season, how does that affect his return? On the extreme Winn or JJ
may bring back more but that probably isn't happening, Libs?

If he's the best, I still think that they may need to add to him in order to get
a player from a higher tier in return. I guess we will find out before the end of the year.

OldRed wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 09:27 am With the Cardinals lack of good starting pitching in my opinion any trade they make should be for defense first, then hitting second.

Unpopular opinion but I’m mostly with you. We do need some better hitting too but I have no problem with the primary focus being on defense first. Good defense and speed has become ridiculously underrated these days.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:26 pm

Red7 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:06 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:15 pm Maybe this has been brought up but I'm not going to go through every Donovan thread here.

Does the fact the Cardinals have made it clear they are in tear down payroll mode make it harder for Bloom to get good value for Donovan?

Teams may well believe that they can squeeze Bloom because they know when push comes to shove the Cardinals aren't going to do a major contract for Donovan and teams can bide their time.

May or may not be a factor just a thought.

One reason the Cardinals did not trade Fedde or Helsley last offseason was they were not willing to take pennies on the dollar. Teams came around wanting to pay garage sale prices, thinking the Cardinals were having a fire sale. Unlike other teams in similar circumstances, neither Mo or Bloom are under orders to cut salary. One reason teams like the Pirates are on a perpetual rebuild is their only goal is to unload salary, rather than get quality pieces in return. Bloom will not trade anyone not named Arenado for anything less than what they assess the value to be.

No the only reason they weren’t traded was because mo like Mel and several other posters thought the Cardinals were good enough to contend they were all wrong they weren’t and mo waited until helsleys value was lower and Fedde had no trade value. Mo even said in the offseason he wasn’t interested in trading helsley

Helsley value was only slightly lower at the deadline, if that. Helsley’s track record was one good (not to mention healthy) year, followed by an off year (not to mention unhealthy) the next made teams wary, just as it did Cardinals’ fans. Teams weren’t going all in on him unless he could prove he could repeat 2024. The same with Fedde. He was a 32 year old journeyman coming off a career year. Again, just as Cardinals’ fans feared a regression, so did prospective suitors. Had the Cardinals been approached with the offers fans thought they would, those guys WOULD have been traded.

Red7 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 20:07 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:26 pm

Red7 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 18:06 pm

11WSChamps wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 16:15 pm Maybe this has been brought up but I'm not going to go through every Donovan thread here.

Does the fact the Cardinals have made it clear they are in tear down payroll mode make it harder for Bloom to get good value for Donovan?

Teams may well believe that they can squeeze Bloom because they know when push comes to shove the Cardinals aren't going to do a major contract for Donovan and teams can bide their time.

May or may not be a factor just a thought.

One reason the Cardinals did not trade Fedde or Helsley last offseason was they were not willing to take pennies on the dollar. Teams came around wanting to pay garage sale prices, thinking the Cardinals were having a fire sale. Unlike other teams in similar circumstances, neither Mo or Bloom are under orders to cut salary. One reason teams like the Pirates are on a perpetual rebuild is their only goal is to unload salary, rather than get quality pieces in return. Bloom will not trade anyone not named Arenado for anything less than what they assess the value to be.

No the only reason they weren’t traded was because mo like Mel and several other posters thought the Cardinals were good enough to contend they were all wrong they weren’t and mo waited until helsleys value was lower and Fedde had no trade value. Mo even said in the offseason he wasn’t interested in trading helsley

Helsley value was only slightly lower at the deadline, if that. Helsley’s track record was one good (not to mention healthy) year, followed by an off year (not to mention unhealthy) the next made teams wary, just as it did Cardinals’ fans. Teams weren’t going all in on him unless he could prove he could repeat 2024. The same with Fedde. He was a 32 year old journeyman coming off a career year. Again, just as Cardinals’ fans feared a regression, so did prospective suitors. Had the Cardinals been approached with the offers fans thought they would, those guys WOULD have been traded.

lol no mo said they were going to contend and said he wasn’t interested in trading helsley mo himself said that. So unless mo was lying when he said that. I went back looked at the quotes looked at the articles in all of them mo said he was going to be to be a part of the team in 2025 and had no plans to trade him. All articles said Mo wasn’t selling he thought they could contend. The whole the cardinals only got garbage offers for fedde and helsely who was one of the best closers in baseball is a narrative spun by those like Mel who were adamant the cardinals should keep them because the team could contend and their value would be higher at the deadline since they turned out to be wrong they now shift it to oh no one offered them anything but garbage lol. It was mos last attempt to go out on a high note as he was leaving no way he was going to tear it down