STLtoday.com

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 10:18 am**

It's creative license to call Kent a 2Bman, he was a butcher there defensively.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 10:33 am**

rbirules wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:07 am
Hoosier59 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 22:21 pm
PanamaCardFan wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 21:35 pm
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pmAt least they only let one in this year.
This was an "era committee" election or something. The typical vote from the BBWAA on more recently retired players is announced on January 20.
Real shame though that Mattingly and Murphy only got 6 votes each! There must be some really stupid people on that committee!
They could only vote for three players, though, so that in itself was not very smart, in my book. If you think a player deserves to get in, you should be able to vote for him, not have to pick and choose only three.
Kent: 123 wRC+, 377 HRs, 1,518 RBI, 2,461 hits, played 2B, 56 fWAR
Don: 124 wRC+, 222 HRs, 1,099 RBI, 2,153 hits, played 1B, 40.7 fWAR

In what world is Mattingly even close to HOF material? He had a similar rate stats to Kent, but his counting stats are way less and he played a position where the bar for offense is as high as it gets while Kent played 2B and his stats are among the best all time at that position. Mattingly was lucky to get six votes.

Voters are giving him extra credit because before he hurt his back, he looked like a HOF player. I call it the Kirby Puckett rule.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 10:35 am**

Hall of 'Very Good'

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 10:39 am**

Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.

The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 10:43 am**

Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe

This is good. Where are all those wins? If the opposition hits .234 ish as a team, the other starter should see at least 5 innings. Is it the pen that’s leading to no decisions hence less starter wins.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 11:20 am**

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:43 am
Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe
This is good. Where are all those wins? If the opposition hits .234 ish as a team, the other starter should see at least 5 innings. Is it the pen that’s leading to no decisions hence less starter wins.

But those 1inning BP arms throw more spinners and heaters than the SP’s and yet today’s SP can’t get to 20 wins….pitching to half a lineup of .220 hitters

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 11:22 am**

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:33 am
rbirules wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:07 am
Hoosier59 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 22:21 pm
PanamaCardFan wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 21:35 pm
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pmAt least they only let one in this year.
This was an "era committee" election or something. The typical vote from the BBWAA on more recently retired players is announced on January 20.
Real shame though that Mattingly and Murphy only got 6 votes each! There must be some really stupid people on that committee!
They could only vote for three players, though, so that in itself was not very smart, in my book. If you think a player deserves to get in, you should be able to vote for him, not have to pick and choose only three.
Kent: 123 wRC+, 377 HRs, 1,518 RBI, 2,461 hits, played 2B, 56 fWAR
Don: 124 wRC+, 222 HRs, 1,099 RBI, 2,153 hits, played 1B, 40.7 fWAR

In what world is Mattingly even close to HOF material? He had a similar rate stats to Kent, but his counting stats are way less and he played a position where the bar for offense is as high as it gets while Kent played 2B and his stats are among the best all time at that position. Mattingly was lucky to get six votes.
Voters are giving him extra credit because before he hurt his back, he looked like a HOF player. I call it the Kirby Puckett rule.

Yeah, he looked on a HOF track during his great four year stretch, and then that was pretty much it. He accumulated about half his career production in those four years.

Great call on the Puckett rule. By those standards, Chris Carpenter should be HOF, maybe Matt Holliday as well . . .

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 11:30 am**

My apologies for the retread.....

Jeff Kent -- not the greatest glove at second base and his arrogance was legendary, but that seems to be a huge penalty to extract for a guy who among second basemen in the 154 years of baseball ranks first in homers, third in RBIs, fifth in doubles, 12th in runs scored and fourth in OPS among those with 3,000+ PAs.

Rod Carew was not a very good second baseman himself, but he was a first ballot HOFer largely because of the 3,000 hits, six batting titles and .328 lifetime average. You know how many times he scored 100 runs? Once. You know how many times he drove in 100 runs? Once.

Jeff Kent scored 100+ runs three times and drove in 100+ runs eight times. Can you name the other HOF second basemen who drove in as many as 100+ runs eight times? Hornsby never did, Collins never did, Lajoie never did, Morgan never did. The closest appears to be Gehringer and Lazzeri with seven. Does Lazzeri strike you as a stellar fielder? Maybe they over looked that because he was generally a "swell guy."

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 12:15 pm**

nighthawk wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 11:30 am My apologies for the retread.....

Jeff Kent -- not the greatest glove at second base and his arrogance was legendary, but that seems to be a huge penalty to extract for a guy who among second basemen in the 154 years of baseball ranks first in homers, third in RBIs, fifth in doubles, 12th in runs scored and fourth in OPS among those with 3,000+ PAs.

Rod Carew was not a very good second baseman himself, but he was a first ballot HOFer largely because of the 3,000 hits, six batting titles and .328 lifetime average. You know how many times he scored 100 runs? Once. You know how many times he drove in 100 runs? Once.

Jeff Kent scored 100+ runs three times and drove in 100+ runs eight times. Can you name the other HOF second basemen who drove in as many as 100+ runs eight times? Hornsby never did, Collins never did, Lajoie never did, Morgan never did. The closest appears to be Gehringer and Lazzeri with seven. Does Lazzeri strike you as a stellar fielder? Maybe they over looked that because he was generally a "swell guy."

I didn't know a player had to be a nice guy to get into the HOF. It should be based on stats as you related to.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 12:58 pm**

ecleme22 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:32 pm
sp25 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:27 pm
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:15 pm
ggnoobs wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 19:20 pm The bar gets lower every year. He doesn't have the counting stats or the rate stats. 123 OPS+ is not HoF worthy. 55 war is good but not great by any means. If he's in then Goldy is slam dunk first ballot as he has 65+ war and OPS+ 10 points higher.

I like a world where Goldy is borderline.
He leads all second baseman in home runs. Third all time in RBI. Fourth in OPS.
However, his only black ink according to Baseball Reference is two seasons leading the NL in Sac Flies.
Please reread Quincy’s post
.

Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax would argue with your with your 300 win baseline. Joe Dimaggio and many others would argue with youe 3000 hit baseline.

People who state arbitrary numbers for the Hall of Dame without taking into account defensive position, market played in, era played in, stadium factors and many other baseball elements want to limit the HOF. Kent was to 2nd basement offensively what Piazza was to catchers. Great offenses from a primary defense 1st position with adequate enough defense to play those positions on many winning teams. You should consider players by position for the HOF.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 12:59 pm**

Sorry my post above was meant to go another posters thread.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 13:27 pm**

Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe

Its no mystery at all if you understand baseball. Pitchers throw much harder with more spin but they get injured a lot and analytics tell teams to not let pitchers face the same hitters multiple times in a game. So more pitchers mean less innings and less wins for starting pitchers. Look at the number of pitches thrown over 96 miles per hour now with high spin rates and compare it to 20 years ago. Pitching specialization has made individual pitching statistics like wins irrelevant and hitting very difficult.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 14:17 pm**

Bob Kunush wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 13:27 pm
Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe
Its no mystery at all if you understand baseball. Pitchers throw much harder with more spin but they get injured a lot and analytics tell teams to not let pitchers face the same hitters multiple times in a game. So more pitchers mean less innings and less wins for starting pitchers. Look at the number of pitches thrown over 96 miles per hour now with high spin rates and compare it to 20 years ago. Pitching specialization has made individual pitching statistics like wins irrelevant and hitting very difficult.

Great SP who are the type we’re talking about……… should be able to shutout these K kings with bats in their hands…..pitch 6-7 innings…hand over to flame throwers in BP for a couple innings and record the W…..at LEAST 20 a season. The qualifier hasn’t changed for a SP>>>>5innings.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 16:06 pm**

Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 14:17 pm
Bob Kunush wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 13:27 pm
Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe
Its no mystery at all if you understand baseball. Pitchers throw much harder with more spin but they get injured a lot and analytics tell teams to not let pitchers face the same hitters multiple times in a game. So more pitchers mean less innings and less wins for starting pitchers. Look at the number of pitches thrown over 96 miles per hour now with high spin rates and compare it to 20 years ago. Pitching specialization has made individual pitching statistics like wins irrelevant and hitting very difficult.
Great SP who are the type we’re talking about……… should be able to shutout these K kings with bats in their hands…..pitch 6-7 innings…hand over to flame throwers in BP for a couple innings and record the W…..at LEAST 20 a season. The qualifier hasn’t changed for a SP>>>>5innings.

How many complete games do you see these days? A 7 inning start is like a complete game. Starters who leave behind by a run or tied dont get the wins they used to get. The game in the 1960s or even the 1980s doesn't even compare to today's hame with the athletic defensive players and the spin rates and velocity of pitchers. Its laughable to compare the players of one era to another. Just the orher day the Athletic had an article about disappearance of the gap extra base hits the last decade due to the above factors. Pitchers are still getting wins. Thet are just now spread out over a roster of many different role pitchers. Some are 5-7 inning starters, some spot starters, some are bullpen games, on and on. And almost every pitcher loses some games to injury or dead arms in a season. Today's style of pitching is highly effective but hard on the human arm.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 16:24 pm**

Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 11:20 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:43 am
Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe
This is good. Where are all those wins? If the opposition hits .234 ish as a team, the other starter should see at least 5 innings. Is it the pen that’s leading to no decisions hence less starter wins.
But those 1inning BP arms throw more spinners and heaters than the SP’s and yet today’s SP can’t get to 20 wins….pitching to half a lineup of .220 hitters

The game has to remain static after the SP is pulled while in the lead after the magical
80-100 pitches. Has to be past the 5th inning in sometimes a very quick hook.
He also never gets credit for any win that occurs in the second half of the
game. Small window on both sides of the equation to capture wins. Yet it has never
paid better.

Posted: **08 Dec 2025 16:30 pm**

Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 14:17 pm
Bob Kunush wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 13:27 pm
Goldfan wrote: ↑08 Dec 2025 10:39 am
Galatians221jb1 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2025 20:41 pm Somehow they need to fix the HOF. Have one wing for the very good players and another one for the greatest players of all time. Kent can be in the same wing as Mazeroski. Used to be 3,000 hits to get in and 400 homers with a .300 or more lifetime BA. Pitchers had to have 300 wins. At least they only let one in this year.
The hitters just can’t put up the numbers any longer because those pitchers are sooooo good…..BUT the Pitchers can’t put up those numbers either
You explain that riddle to me……..
As good as they say all these pitchers are and it takes an act of God for a batter to hit .250…..it would seem to reason that SP could easily throw 5 and win 20-25 a year
Mystery of the universe
Its no mystery at all if you understand baseball. Pitchers throw much harder with more spin but they get injured a lot and analytics tell teams to not let pitchers face the same hitters multiple times in a game. So more pitchers mean less innings and less wins for starting pitchers. Look at the number of pitches thrown over 96 miles per hour now with high spin rates and compare it to 20 years ago. Pitching specialization has made individual pitching statistics like wins irrelevant and hitting very difficult.
Great SP who are the type we’re talking about……… should be able to shutout these K kings with bats in their hands…..pitch 6-7 innings…hand over to flame throwers in BP for a couple innings and record the W…..at LEAST 20 a season. The qualifier hasn’t changed for a SP>>>>5innings.

So when "Should" doesn't happen or is extremely rare,
Should we question the hypothesis?

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Jeff Kent HOF

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