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rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:51 am

2ninr wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:44 pm The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

^^^THIS^^^

Just read this morning that in all his conversations w/fellow POBO/GM's asking about Donny, WillyC, NADO and of course we already know S. Gray, Bloom has told them it has to be young starting pitchers w/upside.

He's collecting as many pitching prospects as possible which is the smart move to make.

I always hated the idea of signing big money FA pitchers, love the idea of signing stud FA hitters!

Develop pitching thru your minor league system.............trade for or sign hitters.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:51 am

2ninr wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:44 pm The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

^^^THIS^^^

Just read this morning that in all his conversations w/fellow POBO/GM's asking about Donny, WillyC, NADO and of course we already know S. Gray, Bloom has told them it has to be young starting pitchers w/upside.

He's collecting as many pitching prospects as possible which is the smart move to make.

I always hated the idea of signing big money FA pitchers, love the idea of signing stud FA hitters!

Develop pitching thru your minor league system.............trade for or sign hitters.

Always been my philosophy. Draft pitching, pitching, pitching. Buy bats as needed.

Can never have enough pitching. And "excess" is trade bait.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:51 am

2ninr wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:44 pm The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

^^^THIS^^^

Just read this morning that in all his conversations w/fellow POBO/GM's asking about Donny, WillyC, NADO and of course we already know S. Gray, Bloom has told them it has to be young starting pitchers w/upside.

He's collecting as many pitching prospects as possible which is the smart move to make.

I always hated the idea of signing big money FA pitchers, love the idea of signing stud FA hitters!

Develop pitching thru your minor league system.............trade for or sign hitters.

Always been my philosophy. Draft pitching, pitching, pitching. Buy bats as needed.

Can never have enough pitching. And "excess" is trade bait.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 09:00 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:51 am

2ninr wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:44 pm The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

^^^THIS^^^

Just read this morning that in all his conversations w/fellow POBO/GM's asking about Donny, WillyC, NADO and of course we already know S. Gray, Bloom has told them it has to be young starting pitchers w/upside.

He's collecting as many pitching prospects as possible which is the smart move to make.

I always hated the idea of signing big money FA pitchers, love the idea of signing stud FA hitters!

Develop pitching thru your minor league system.............trade for or sign hitters.

Always been my philosophy. Draft pitching, pitching, pitching. Buy bats as needed.

Can never have enough pitching. And "excess" is trade bait.

100%

Did you see the Jays just signed that Cody Ponce guy we all were discussing?

Insane $30M/3 yrs for a guy who's done nothing in MLB and will be 32 yrs old next season.

They now have seven starters under contract!

renostl wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 23:01 pm

Cusecards wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:27 pm With Mikolas and now Gray gone I could possibly see a veteran SP signed to a one year deal similar to what they did with Lynn & Gibson.
Can Libby build on 2025?
McGreevey continue to progress in his first full season?
Fitts should get a look.
Leahy a maybe for the rotation?
Mathews might not make it for the opener but I would expect him to get his chance in the first half.
Who knows with Pallante??
There is zero reason to throw $$ and multi years at a FA this offseason.
Bloom would figure to hunt SP when he makes deals.

They certainly could go that direction.

A couple things on that though. Will the need for that extra bought pitching go away in
'27 or '28 even '29 and will the team still be in the rebuild?

IMO, If there is a SP that deserves a 3 or 4 year contract I would attempt to get him.
3 reasons, you're going to need him, decreases the revolving door and provides a steadier
rotation. Veteran leadership might benefit a group that lacks it even in the pitching
coach group.

They saved $20M out of the $40 owed Gray.

Turn that into 2 rotation pieces, FA, 26 y/o Fitts, and a 22 y/o number 7
SP prospect sounds okay.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 09:09 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 09:00 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:54 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 08:51 am

2ninr wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:44 pm The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

^^^THIS^^^

Just read this morning that in all his conversations w/fellow POBO/GM's asking about Donny, WillyC, NADO and of course we already know S. Gray, Bloom has told them it has to be young starting pitchers w/upside.

He's collecting as many pitching prospects as possible which is the smart move to make.

I always hated the idea of signing big money FA pitchers, love the idea of signing stud FA hitters!

Develop pitching thru your minor league system.............trade for or sign hitters.

Always been my philosophy. Draft pitching, pitching, pitching. Buy bats as needed.

Can never have enough pitching. And "excess" is trade bait.

100%

Did you see the Jays just signed that Cody Ponce guy we all were discussing?

Insane $30M/3 yrs for a guy who's done nothing in MLB and will be 32 yrs old next season.

They now have seven starters under contract!

Lol. The guy was good once in his career. Last year in the KBO. The KBO. Lol

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 01:34 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:12 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 22:00 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 20:50 pm

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 20:46 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

Maybe but the big markets can still hoard more of the what I will call tier 2 SP making the tier 3 more expensive, look at the Cease contract. I think almost all of the top 10 SP exceed their projected contracts. That will definatly force the next tier to use that as leverage.

I agree with you about the skyrocketing cost of SPs. We dont agree about how the mid market teams will pivot and respond. I think we will see more teams beefing up their player development systems to avoid having to spend big bucks in the FA market.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:42 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

You know that is their 2025 pitching line. What is silly about comparing pitching lines and then laughing at someone paying $210M for that? That is crazy. Like I said, I understand Cease is the better pitcher. Having said that, would you be happy if the Cards had signed him to that deal? In particular if that meant he was the only high priced pitcher the Cards would sign?

DewittDaman11 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 13:48 pm So, MLB trade rumors just posted that the Blue Jays would be open to trading starting pitcher Berrios. Does anyone have a feel/knowledge whether or not the Jays need a 3rd basemen, in which case maybe they would do an Arenado swap, straight up. Or, maybe a 1B/DH/Catcher(yes, he can still catch), in which case maybe a straight up swap for Contreras. The Blue Jays obviously are a contending team, still really going for it this year, so, both players could go to a WS competitive team. I would like to be able to get prospects for one, or both, of Arenado and Contreras, but, I'm not really sure that will be an easy task, if possible at all. Berrios is in the last year of a 24 mil contract(pretty sure), with a possible 2 year extension with a buyout involved, which the Cardinals probably would not pick up. That gives them a quality arm for a year while Mathews/Mautz/Henderson work their way into the MLB rotation. Just a thought, please let me know my wrong thinking in this matter, lol!

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 13:52 pm

DewittDaman11 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 13:48 pm So, MLB trade rumors just posted that the Blue Jays would be open to trading starting pitcher Berrios. Does anyone have a feel/knowledge whether or not the Jays need a 3rd basemen, in which case maybe they would do an Arenado swap, straight up. Or, maybe a 1B/DH/Catcher(yes, he can still catch), in which case maybe a straight up swap for Contreras. The Blue Jays obviously are a contending team, still really going for it this year, so, both players could go to a WS competitive team. I would like to be able to get prospects for one, or both, of Arenado and Contreras, but, I'm not really sure that will be an easy task, if possible at all. Berrios is in the last year of a 24 mil contract(pretty sure), with a possible 2 year extension with a buyout involved, which the Cardinals probably would not pick up. That gives them a quality arm for a year while Mathews/Mautz/Henderson work their way into the MLB rotation. Just a thought, please let me know my wrong thinking in this matter, lol!

Just my opinion, I would stay away from Berrios. He spent time on the IL last season with forearm and elbow issues. Given the load he has carried, he seems to me like a TJ waiting to happen. Now, if we could get LHP Ricky Tiedemann from them, I'm all ears.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:42 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:28 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2025 12:22 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 19:32 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:32 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑02 Dec 2025 18:15 pm I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

The Cardinals were never going to add more than a Mikolas type this year or someone on a pillow deal. They have made that pretty clear with Bloom's comments. The SP prices are just sky high. If you look at Dylan Cease's statistics, he is Mikolas with a higher strike out rate. The sabre stats love him. The results sure are not different though. That guy got 7/$210M for very mediocre results...

Wow, c'mon. Lol

Pitcher A 31 Starts 8-11 W-L 4.84 ERA 156.1 innings 1.318 WHIP
Pitcher B 32 Starts 8-12 W-L 4.55 ERA 168 Innings 1.327 WHIP

Which one is which? One of those pitchers is getting 7/$210M, the other might be on the way out of baseball...I understand one of them is the better pitcher. But $210M worth of a better pitcher is my point. I don't think so.

Are those career numbers???
Comparing Mikolas to Cease is silly.
Its like comparing Gorman to Schwarber.

You know that is their 2025 pitching line. What is silly about comparing pitching lines and then laughing at someone paying $210M for that? That is crazy. Like I said, I understand Cease is the better pitcher. Having said that, would you be happy if the Cards had signed him to that deal? In particular if that meant he was the only high priced pitcher the Cards would sign?