Question for those not wanting to Rebuild

[Stlcardsblues]

People don't want a rebuild? Fascinating.

When the Cardinals have constantly put a quality team on the field for a few decades now....littered with stars and a few hall of farmers...why would they want a rebuild...obviously the position this franchise is in right now calls for one....but the same people not happy about a rebuild... are the same ones who seen this coming for awhile now... because of Mozeliak and Dewitt ....the cards should not be in this position to have to rebuild....hell they didn't even want to use the term rebuild....Mozeliak calling it a reset....give me a break....and by the declining attendance numbers....it's just not a few on this board that's displeased

This is 100% my stance. I despise DeWitt and Mo put this franchise in this situation. The team is in this situation because of their stubbornness and arrogance. With that said, they are here and this has taken a decade to destroy, it’s not being fixed in one offseason.

I don’t fault those frustrated with Mo and DeWitt for putting the Cardinals in this situation. No one should be happy or accepting of the state they put this franchise in. That’s different from those of us who have looked at this realistically and see the damage they have done and see this will take time to rebuild and correct.

There is no quick fixes. They tried that and it stuck this franchise in four years of mediocrity wasting valuable time to fix it.

Blooms moves might not be the correct ones, times will tell. This is now on Bloom to show he can correct this.

I agree with most, except a quick fix is possible. They havent tried quality quick fixes. They've tried mediocre fixes and been left with a mediocre product.

What is your quality quick fix?

[Cardinals4Life]

People don't want a rebuild? Fascinating.

When the Cardinals have constantly put a quality team on the field for a few decades now....littered with stars and a few hall of farmers...why would they want a rebuild...obviously the position this franchise is in right now calls for one....but the same people not happy about a rebuild... are the same ones who seen this coming for awhile now... because of Mozeliak and Dewitt ....the cards should not be in this position to have to rebuild....hell they didn't even want to use the term rebuild....Mozeliak calling it a reset....give me a break....and by the declining attendance numbers....it's just not a few on this board that's displeased

This is 100% my stance. I despise DeWitt and Mo put this franchise in this situation. The team is in this situation because of their stubbornness and arrogance. With that said, they are here and this has taken a decade to destroy, it’s not being fixed in one offseason.

I don’t fault those frustrated with Mo and DeWitt for putting the Cardinals in this situation. No one should be happy or accepting of the state they put this franchise in. That’s different from those of us who have looked at this realistically and see the damage they have done and see this will take time to rebuild and correct.

There is no quick fixes. They tried that and it stuck this franchise in four years of mediocrity wasting valuable time to fix it.

Blooms moves might not be the correct ones, times will tell. This is now on Bloom to show he can correct this.

I agree with most, except a quick fix is possible. They havent tried quality quick fixes. They've tried mediocre fixes and been left with a mediocre product.

What is your quality quick fix?

Spend some money and get a couple of elite players. Make a trade for another. Trade some redundant pieces. Money for pillars combined with the young complimentary pieces could be a quick fix.

[Carp4Cy]

People don't want a rebuild? Fascinating.

I want a rebuild. Its the teardown (especially in slow-motion) that I hate. Replace Oli already.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

[nighthawk]

People don't want a rebuild? Fascinating.

When the Cardinals have constantly put a quality team on the field for a few decades now....littered with stars and a few hall of farmers...why would they want a rebuild...obviously the position this franchise is in right now calls for one....but the same people not happy about a rebuild... are the same ones who seen this coming for awhile now... because of Mozeliak and Dewitt ....the cards should not be in this position to have to rebuild....hell they didn't even want to use the term rebuild....Mozeliak calling it a reset....give me a break....and by the declining attendance numbers....it's just not a few on this board that's displeased

Ahh, yes the savants on this forum.

[Cusecards]

Dealing from hindsight the most recent influx of high potential prospects has not panned out.
Reyes, Flaherty, Hudson, etc were supposed to carry the rotation. All obviously gone!
Now you have Gorman, Walker, Noot all probably facing do-or-die seasons? Most are not exactly giddy with optimism!
Let’s hope the next wave- JJ, Doyle, Bernal, Baez, etc etc
is much more impactful?

A new regime under Bloom and I’ll give him his due time.
Fingers crossed!

[The Nard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

In effect, one rebuilds a team every season. You DFA or trade away those that you don’t have a home for, identify the holes in your lineup, field, and staff, continually search for available players, and make room for several rookies that may work out for your team in the coming season.

For 2026, there’s at least a half-dozen players that you’ll be using as trade bait. There’s probably 2-3 rookies that may make the active roster. Externally, I’d search for a solid outfielder who provides some pop, and a solid veteran starting pitcher.

But so are most other teams, looking for the same. It’s a bit like musical chairs. I hope Bloom makes his moves sooner rather than later, unlike his predecessor.

[mattmitchl44]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

[Stlcardsblues]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

[Stlcardsblues]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

As far as how to build it. They need to identify who is the core of this rebuild first. Get those players in place then you can build it out through trades and free agency to fill holes.

[sikeston bulldog2]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

In effect, one rebuilds a team every season. You DFA or trade away those that you don’t have a home for, identify the holes in your lineup, field, and staff, continually search for available players, and make room for several rookies that may work out for your team in the coming season.

For 2026, there’s at least a half-dozen players that you’ll be using as trade bait. There’s probably 2-3 rookies that may make the active roster. Externally, I’d search for a solid outfielder who provides some pop, and a solid veteran starting pitcher.

But so are most other teams, looking for the same. It’s a bit like musical chairs. I hope Bloom makes his moves sooner rather than later, unlike his predecessor.

Stephan Stills- change partners - so we, change partners, time to, change partners, you must, change partners, once again.

Nothing but a revolving door- 780 players on rosters. 390 pitchers. Doesn’t leave a deep pool to swim in.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

[mattmitchl44]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

[Ozziesfan41]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

+1 I wanted them to finally develop a strategy and pick a direction instead of mos torch the development system sustain mediocrity hope to compete squeak in and pray for miracles. They finally have a clear strategy and direction I can behind it

[ecleme22]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

When we think of the last 20 years and needing to rebuild, many think we are trying to find the next Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Holliday, Molina, Waino, Chris Carpenter, etc. The next BIG horses.

While this is true, I'm just as much looking forward to a pipeline that produces the next Craig, Marp, Donovan, Freese, Skip, Wacha, CMart, Jay, even Pham, Seigrist, Motte, etc. Supporting players who are ready for primetime.

I also look forward to Bloom running an organization where guys like Adams, Grichuk, etc. are treated like nice supporting players and not the next BIG guys.

Lastly, I personally think people that are treating this rebuild as a big deal, need to chill. This will be a relatively soft rebuild, IMO.