STLtoday.com

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 01:25 am**

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 12:32 pm
CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:24 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan
1. Scherzer
2.Verlander
3.Kershaw

I would argue you have this trio ranked backwards. I think recently bias has you forgetting how dominant Kershaw was that first 10 years. Won 3 CYA in 4 years, an MVP, and Triple Crown. Four other top 5 finishes. Five ERA titles. Verlander with a similar resume with the MVP, Triple Crown, and multiple ERA titles. Scherzer did none of those (just the 3 CYAs).

You can easily argue Verlander > Kershaw. Justin certainly had a longer peak (his CYAs were in 2011, 2019, and 2022...very spread out). But I'd say that Kershaw was more dominant within a 7+ year stretch that was unmatched by the others.

Clayton was awesome during that strech. Except for his kryptonite in Matt Adams! His lack of post season results knocks him down the list for me, compared to a Gibson, who was money when it mattered.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:28 am**

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR

Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:34 am**

Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.

According to your stats Verlander should be number one.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:49 am**

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.

I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:50 am**

Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:49 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.
I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.

I stand corrected. I was going by your numbers. My mistake.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:52 am**

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:50 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:49 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.
I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.
I stand corrected. I was going by your numbers. My mistake.

I think you're looking at Rocks thread.
He thinks Kershaw is #1.
I think that's what may be happening here.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:56 am**

Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:52 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:50 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:49 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.
I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.
I stand corrected. I was going by your numbers. My mistake.
I think you're looking at Rocks thread.
He thinks Kershaw is #1.
I think that's what may be happening here.

You are again correct. Dam. I need to quit smoking this stuff- ha.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 07:58 am**

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:56 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:52 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:50 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:49 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.
I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.
I stand corrected. I was going by your numbers. My mistake.
I think you're looking at Rocks thread.
He thinks Kershaw is #1.
I think that's what may be happening here.
You are again correct. Dam. I need to quit smoking this stuff- ha.

Ha!!
I make same mistakes, but not because of smoking.
I'm just getting too (bleep) old!!

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 08:40 am**

Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.

99.9% Clemens was a steroid using cheater.

And I agree w/you.

The great pitchers you listed from the 60's, 70's and 80's were better starters and they were horses throwing complete games, not "five and divers" like pitchers the past thirty years.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 08:49 am**

Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:58 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:56 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:52 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:50 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:49 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.
I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.
I stand corrected. I was going by your numbers. My mistake.
I think you're looking at Rocks thread.
He thinks Kershaw is #1.
I think that's what may be happening here.
You are again correct. Dam. I need to quit smoking this stuff- ha.
Ha!!
I make same mistakes, but not because of smoking.
I'm just getting too (drat) old!!

Yea smoking isn’t my favorite or best choice reference a “medicine.”

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 08:52 am**

Warren Spahn has to be in the group somewhere along with Steve Carlton and Lefty Grove.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 11:08 am**

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 12:32 pm
CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:24 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan
1. Scherzer
2.Verlander
3.Kershaw

I would argue you have this trio ranked backwards. I think recently bias has you forgetting how dominant Kershaw was that first 10 years. Won 3 CYA in 4 years, an MVP, and Triple Crown. Four other top 5 finishes. Five ERA titles. Verlander with a similar resume with the MVP, Triple Crown, and multiple ERA titles. Scherzer did none of those (just the 3 CYAs).

You can easily argue Verlander > Kershaw. Justin certainly had a longer peak (his CYAs were in 2011, 2019, and 2022...very spread out). But I'd say that Kershaw was more dominant within a 7+ year stretch that was unmatched by the others.

After looking into the numbers I'll admit Kershaw was very dominant. I concede that Kershaw, Verlander and Scherzer could very well be the top. It's really hard to judge different era's though. The ball is smaller a bit and harder I believe. Baseball talent is watered down with the draw of other sports. Still the numbers are what they are.

Posted: **07 Nov 2025 11:13 am**

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:49 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:58 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:56 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:52 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:50 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:49 am
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:34 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 07:28 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR
Oh man I forgot about Pedro.
How could I do that????
I don't know about flipping him for Clemens though.
Not sold on him and PED's.
I say this current trio is lesser than those of the past.
Could be because of the differences in pitching these days.
But I like the old guys better.
According to your stats Verlander should be number one.
I think Verlander is the best of those three.
I have Kershaw 3rd.
I stand corrected. I was going by your numbers. My mistake.
I think you're looking at Rocks thread.
He thinks Kershaw is #1.
I think that's what may be happening here.
You are again correct. Dam. I need to quit smoking this stuff- ha.
Ha!!
I make same mistakes, but not because of smoking.
I'm just getting too (drat) old!!
Yea smoking isn’t my favorite or best choice reference a “medicine.”

Just look at Kershaw's career ERA, it's THREE-QUARTERS of run or more lower than Verlander and Max's!

That a huge difference and why of the three he's my #1.

STLtoday.com

OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?

Re: OT-Verlander, Scherzer & Kershaw--As their careers wind down, where do you place this trio in all time ranks?