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Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 11:54 am
by ScotchMIrish
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 09:36 am
Melville wrote: ↑02 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Allow me to make a point which I have not seen or heard anyone else make (naturally).
The Blue Jays would have won the World Series if they had understood the perfect point I am about to make.
There was no need for Kiner-Falefa to slide into home.
Sliding is proven to be slower than running through a base.
Players only need to slide on tag plays or to avoid over-running a base.
Neither applied in that moment.
If Kiner-Falefa runs through home plate, and does not slow himself by sliding, he would have been clearly safe on that play.
And any replay review would have been far more precise.
No excuse for the mistake he made.
It is something he and the 3b coach should have discussed.
Obviously, they did not.
Foolish mistake.
Had I been the 3b coach, it would have been explained to the runner well in advance and there would have been no slide.
And he would have been safe.
And the Blue Jay would be exhausted this morning from celebrating last night.
Sorry Melville, not you and you alone this time. I’ve even seen it stated on social media several times and when I was watching the game I wondered why he slid. It was easy, obvious and incorrect that he slid and most everyone knew it.
Like I’ve stated several times, the money didn’t buy the World Series for LA. The Blue Jays had them on the ropes and the Dodgers stuck their chin out several times daring to be knocked out. Poor play at key moments, bad luck, untimely injuries and maybe Dave Roberts out-managing the other guy in game 7 are all bigger reasons than money that LA won.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025
Median MLB total payroll in 2025 was $162 million. Dodgers payroll $350 million. Toronto payroll $255 million. Let's say MLB had a payroll cap at median payroll on $162 million.
Dodgers payroll]Dodgers payrolll
Toronto payroll
Subtract $188 million from the Dodgers and $93 million from Toronto and tell me they win the world series. Dodgers bought it and Toronto tried to buy it but came up a little short.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 12:12 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 11:54 am
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 09:36 am
Melville wrote: ↑02 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Allow me to make a point which I have not seen or heard anyone else make (naturally).
The Blue Jays would have won the World Series if they had understood the perfect point I am about to make.
There was no need for Kiner-Falefa to slide into home.
Sliding is proven to be slower than running through a base.
Players only need to slide on tag plays or to avoid over-running a base.
Neither applied in that moment.
If Kiner-Falefa runs through home plate, and does not slow himself by sliding, he would have been clearly safe on that play.
And any replay review would have been far more precise.
No excuse for the mistake he made.
It is something he and the 3b coach should have discussed.
Obviously, they did not.
Foolish mistake.
Had I been the 3b coach, it would have been explained to the runner well in advance and there would have been no slide.
And he would have been safe.
And the Blue Jay would be exhausted this morning from celebrating last night.
Sorry Melville, not you and you alone this time. I’ve even seen it stated on social media several times and when I was watching the game I wondered why he slid. It was easy, obvious and incorrect that he slid and most everyone knew it.
Like I’ve stated several times, the money didn’t buy the World Series for LA. The Blue Jays had them on the ropes and the Dodgers stuck their chin out several times daring to be knocked out. Poor play at key moments, bad luck, untimely injuries and maybe Dave Roberts out-managing the other guy in game 7 are all bigger reasons than money that LA won.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025
Median MLB total payroll in 2025 was $162 million. Dodgers payroll $350 million. Toronto payroll $255 million. Let's say MLB had a payroll cap at median payroll on $162 million.
Dodgers payroll]Dodgers payrolll
Toronto payroll
Subtract $188 million from the Dodgers and $93 million from Toronto and tell me they win the world series. Dodgers bought it and Toronto tried to buy it but came up a little short.
So because the Dodgers spent more, the Blue Jays should be absolved of their boneheaded play in game 7? Why didn’t the guy at 3rd take more than a two foot lead? The close play at home wouldn’t have even been close. Then he could’ve NOT slid. Two chances to win it all on one play and three mental lapses (twice on the player, once on the 3rd base coach). Toronto had every chance in the world to prove, once again, you don’t need the #1 payroll to win. They 100% choked.
Also, why was the median payroll $162 million when each small market team was awarded $200 million in revenue sharing alone last offseason? Because cheap (donkey) owners who don’t care about competitive balance don’t honor the system and would rather build another [shirt]ty restaurant or bar in their little stadium village with that money to milk more profit from loyal fans. It’s disgusting and everyone whines about the spenders and wants to help the cheap (donkey) owners with a salary cap. No revenue cap on them of course.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 13:02 pm
by ClassicO
As noted earlier, the real issue was his primary lead off and secondary lead as this post indicates - both were close to the worst in the Series — and it should have been easier from 3b with Muncy not close. Apparently they were coached to avoid the double play but it was extremely conservative for a guy with his speed.
His 7.8 ft primary lead ranked 357/381 out of all primary leads in the World Series.
His 8.9 ft secondary lead ranked 366/376 out of all secondary leads in the WS.
His 28.2 ft/s sprint speed ranked 61/689 out of all sprint speeds in the WS.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 13:36 pm
by ScotchMIrish
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 12:12 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 11:54 am
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 09:36 am
Melville wrote: ↑02 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Allow me to make a point which I have not seen or heard anyone else make (naturally).
The Blue Jays would have won the World Series if they had understood the perfect point I am about to make.
There was no need for Kiner-Falefa to slide into home.
Sliding is proven to be slower than running through a base.
Players only need to slide on tag plays or to avoid over-running a base.
Neither applied in that moment.
If Kiner-Falefa runs through home plate, and does not slow himself by sliding, he would have been clearly safe on that play.
And any replay review would have been far more precise.
No excuse for the mistake he made.
It is something he and the 3b coach should have discussed.
Obviously, they did not.
Foolish mistake.
Had I been the 3b coach, it would have been explained to the runner well in advance and there would have been no slide.
And he would have been safe.
And the Blue Jay would be exhausted this morning from celebrating last night.
Sorry Melville, not you and you alone this time. I’ve even seen it stated on social media several times and when I was watching the game I wondered why he slid. It was easy, obvious and incorrect that he slid and most everyone knew it.
Like I’ve stated several times, the money didn’t buy the World Series for LA. The Blue Jays had them on the ropes and the Dodgers stuck their chin out several times daring to be knocked out. Poor play at key moments, bad luck, untimely injuries and maybe Dave Roberts out-managing the other guy in game 7 are all bigger reasons than money that LA won.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025
Median MLB total payroll in 2025 was $162 million. Dodgers payroll $350 million. Toronto payroll $255 million. Let's say MLB had a payroll cap at median payroll on $162 million.
Dodgers payroll]Dodgers payrolll
Toronto payroll
Subtract $188 million from the Dodgers and $93 million from Toronto and tell me they win the world series. Dodgers bought it and Toronto tried to buy it but came up a little short.
So because the Dodgers spent more, the Blue Jays should be absolved of their boneheaded play in game 7? Why didn’t the guy at 3rd take more than a two foot lead? The close play at home wouldn’t have even been close. Then he could’ve NOT slid. Two chances to win it all on one play and three mental lapses (twice on the player, once on the 3rd base coach). Toronto had every chance in the world to prove, once again, you don’t need the #1 payroll to win. They 100% choked.
Also, why was the median payroll $162 million when each small market team was awarded $200 million in revenue sharing alone last offseason? Because cheap (donkey) owners who don’t care about competitive balance don’t honor the system and would rather build another [shirt]ty restaurant or bar in their little stadium village with that money to milk more profit from loyal fans. It’s disgusting and everyone whines about the spenders and wants to help the cheap (donkey) owners with a salary cap. No revenue cap on them of course.
They both got there with big money. Put the Dodgers manager on a poor team with a bad roster. and watch what happens. Once in a while a poor team hits the perfect storm and wins like the Royals. Yost was a genius - then their good players left via free agency and Yost lost 100 games his last 2 seasons in KC.
Subract $188 million for the Dodgers payroll and show me the lineup and pitching staff.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 14:23 pm
by CorneliusWolfe
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 13:36 pm
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 12:12 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 11:54 am
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 09:36 am
Melville wrote: ↑02 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Allow me to make a point which I have not seen or heard anyone else make (naturally).
The Blue Jays would have won the World Series if they had understood the perfect point I am about to make.
There was no need for Kiner-Falefa to slide into home.
Sliding is proven to be slower than running through a base.
Players only need to slide on tag plays or to avoid over-running a base.
Neither applied in that moment.
If Kiner-Falefa runs through home plate, and does not slow himself by sliding, he would have been clearly safe on that play.
And any replay review would have been far more precise.
No excuse for the mistake he made.
It is something he and the 3b coach should have discussed.
Obviously, they did not.
Foolish mistake.
Had I been the 3b coach, it would have been explained to the runner well in advance and there would have been no slide.
And he would have been safe.
And the Blue Jay would be exhausted this morning from celebrating last night.
Sorry Melville, not you and you alone this time. I’ve even seen it stated on social media several times and when I was watching the game I wondered why he slid. It was easy, obvious and incorrect that he slid and most everyone knew it.
Like I’ve stated several times, the money didn’t buy the World Series for LA. The Blue Jays had them on the ropes and the Dodgers stuck their chin out several times daring to be knocked out. Poor play at key moments, bad luck, untimely injuries and maybe Dave Roberts out-managing the other guy in game 7 are all bigger reasons than money that LA won.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025
Median MLB total payroll in 2025 was $162 million. Dodgers payroll $350 million. Toronto payroll $255 million. Let's say MLB had a payroll cap at median payroll on $162 million.
Dodgers payroll]Dodgers payrolll
Toronto payroll
Subtract $188 million from the Dodgers and $93 million from Toronto and tell me they win the world series. Dodgers bought it and Toronto tried to buy it but came up a little short.
So because the Dodgers spent more, the Blue Jays should be absolved of their boneheaded play in game 7? Why didn’t the guy at 3rd take more than a two foot lead? The close play at home wouldn’t have even been close. Then he could’ve NOT slid. Two chances to win it all on one play and three mental lapses (twice on the player, once on the 3rd base coach). Toronto had every chance in the world to prove, once again, you don’t need the #1 payroll to win. They 100% choked.
Also, why was the median payroll $162 million when each small market team was awarded $200 million in revenue sharing alone last offseason? Because cheap (donkey) owners who don’t care about competitive balance don’t honor the system and would rather build another [shirt]ty restaurant or bar in their little stadium village with that money to milk more profit from loyal fans. It’s disgusting and everyone whines about the spenders and wants to help the cheap (donkey) owners with a salary cap. No revenue cap on them of course.
They both got there with big money. Put the Dodgers manager on a poor team with a bad roster. and watch what happens. Once in a while a poor team hits the perfect storm and wins like the Royals. Yost was a genius - then their good players left via free agency and Yost lost 100 games his last 2 seasons in KC.
Subract $188 million for the Dodgers payroll and show me the lineup and pitching staff.
Definitely not saying they wouldn’t be worse. But I do think the disparity could be less drastic if the cheap owners would’ve used that $200 million in revenue shares to improve their teams. Might’ve been two completely different teams in the WS.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 14:28 pm
by imetsatchelpaige
Indeed.
Time travel being imperfect, we must accept the vagaries of chance.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 14:33 pm
by rockondlouie
imetsatchelpaige wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:28 pm
Indeed.
Time travel being imperfect, we must accept the vagaries of chance.
I still think he was safe satch, even w/o sliding.
(I wonder if we had replay that call would've been overturned on challenge? We know 1985's miscue would've been)
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 15:11 pm
by ScotchMIrish
rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:33 pm
imetsatchelpaige wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:28 pm
Indeed.
Time travel being imperfect, we must accept the vagaries of chance.
I still think he was safe satch, even w/o sliding.
(I wonder if we had replay that call would've been overturned on challenge? We know 1985's miscue would've been)
If you look at the replay at :41 the umpire wasn't looking at Brock's foot. He was looking at the tag. Today there would be replay from several angles and the outcome might be different.
I was at game 6. My Dad somehow got tickets. We arrived a little late but in time to see Detroit score 10 in the 3rd inning with Jim Northrup hitting a grand slam. The box score on baseball reference says field conditions and weather unknown. I can testify it was raining throughout the game which undoubtedly led to Flood losing his footing in game 7. Several HOF players in that game. Carlton pitched in relief and gave up a home run to Al Kaline - both HOF.
Only world series game I've ever attended and likely ever will.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 16:15 pm
by ScotchMIrish
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 15:11 pm
rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:33 pm
imetsatchelpaige wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:28 pm
Indeed.
Time travel being imperfect, we must accept the vagaries of chance.
I still think he was safe satch, even w/o sliding.
(I wonder if we had replay that call would've been overturned on challenge? We know 1985's miscue would've been)
If you look at the replay at :41 the umpire wasn't looking at Brock's foot. He was looking at the tag. Today there would be replay from several angles and the outcome might be different. Joe Shultz coaching 3B. When the throw game in high perhaps the on deck batter could have signaled for Brock to slide. I think George Kissell switched from managing in the low minors to third base coach the following year.
I was at game 6. My Dad somehow got tickets. We arrived a little late but in time to see Detroit score 10 in the 3rd inning with Jim Northrup hitting a grand slam. The box score on baseball reference says field conditions and weather unknown. I can testify it was raining throughout the game which undoubtedly led to Flood losing his footing in game 7. Several HOF players in that game. Carlton pitched in relief and gave up a home run to Al Kaline - both HOF.
Only world series game I've ever attended and likely ever will.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 16:24 pm
by Ordinary Man
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 15:11 pm
rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:33 pm
imetsatchelpaige wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:28 pm
Indeed.
Time travel being imperfect, we must accept the vagaries of chance.
I still think he was safe satch, even w/o sliding.
(I wonder if we had replay that call would've been overturned on challenge? We know 1985's miscue would've been)
If you look at the replay at :41 the umpire wasn't looking at Brock's foot. He was looking at the tag. Today there would be replay from several angles and the outcome might be different.
I was at game 6. My Dad somehow got tickets. We arrived a little late but in time to see Detroit score 10 in the 3rd inning with Jim Northrup hitting a grand slam. The box score on baseball reference says field conditions and weather unknown. I can testify it was raining throughout the game
which undoubtedly led to Flood losing his footing in game 7. Several HOF players in that game. Carlton pitched in relief and gave up a home run to Al Kaline - both HOF.
Only world series game I've ever attended and likely ever will.
I was at game 7 low in the right center bleachers not far from Flood in center field. He seemed to take a long time finding the ball, it was late in the afternoon of a partly cloudy day, and I think he lost the ball as it came up out of the stadium backdrop. When he realized where it was going, he turned (and tore a big divot in the grass that actually flew up) but it was too late. The damp ground may have contributed to it, but he misjudged and/or found the ball too late.
I also attended Game 1 in which Gibson struck out 17 batters, breaking Koufax's record of 15. Sandy was in the house working for NBC and witnessed it. Those are the only two WS games I've ever been to and probably the only ones for me too.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 16:55 pm
by ScotchMIrish
Ordinary Man wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 16:24 pm
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 15:11 pm
rockondlouie wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:33 pm
imetsatchelpaige wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 14:28 pm
Indeed.
Time travel being imperfect, we must accept the vagaries of chance.
I still think he was safe satch, even w/o sliding.
(I wonder if we had replay that call would've been overturned on challenge? We know 1985's miscue would've been)
If you look at the replay at :41 the umpire wasn't looking at Brock's foot. He was looking at the tag. Today there would be replay from several angles and the outcome might be different.
I was at game 6. My Dad somehow got tickets. We arrived a little late but in time to see Detroit score 10 in the 3rd inning with Jim Northrup hitting a grand slam. The box score on baseball reference says field conditions and weather unknown. I can testify it was raining throughout the game
which undoubtedly led to Flood losing his footing in game 7. Several HOF players in that game. Carlton pitched in relief and gave up a home run to Al Kaline - both HOF.
Only world series game I've ever attended and likely ever will.
I was at game 7 low in the right center bleachers not far from Flood in center field. He seemed to take a long time finding the ball, it was late in the afternoon of a partly cloudy day, and I think he lost the ball as it came up out of the stadium backdrop. When he realized where it was going, he turned (and tore a big divot in the grass that actually flew up) but it was too late. The damp ground may have contributed to it, but he misjudged and/or found the ball too late.
I also attended Game 1 in which Gibson struck out 17 batters, breaking Koufax's record of 15. Sandy was in the house working for NBC and witnessed it. Those are the only two WS games I've ever been to and probably the only ones for me too.
There were several years where the NL gold glove for outfielders automatically went to Mays, Clemente and Flood. Flood had misfortune in the spotlight. If you search youtube for Curt Flood that's the video you see. He was also one of the best hitters for average during a tough era - the higher pitching mound.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 17:54 pm
by CCard
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 11:54 am
CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑03 Nov 2025 09:36 am
Melville wrote: ↑02 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Allow me to make a point which I have not seen or heard anyone else make (naturally).
The Blue Jays would have won the World Series if they had understood the perfect point I am about to make.
There was no need for Kiner-Falefa to slide into home.
Sliding is proven to be slower than running through a base.
Players only need to slide on tag plays or to avoid over-running a base.
Neither applied in that moment.
If Kiner-Falefa runs through home plate, and does not slow himself by sliding, he would have been clearly safe on that play.
And any replay review would have been far more precise.
No excuse for the mistake he made.
It is something he and the 3b coach should have discussed.
Obviously, they did not.
Foolish mistake.
Had I been the 3b coach, it would have been explained to the runner well in advance and there would have been no slide.
And he would have been safe.
And the Blue Jay would be exhausted this morning from celebrating last night.
Sorry Melville, not you and you alone this time. I’ve even seen it stated on social media several times and when I was watching the game I wondered why he slid. It was easy, obvious and incorrect that he slid and most everyone knew it.
Like I’ve stated several times, the money didn’t buy the World Series for LA. The Blue Jays had them on the ropes and the Dodgers stuck their chin out several times daring to be knocked out. Poor play at key moments, bad luck, untimely injuries and maybe Dave Roberts out-managing the other guy in game 7 are all bigger reasons than money that LA won.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/_/year/2025
Median MLB total payroll in 2025 was $162 million. Dodgers payroll $350 million. Toronto payroll $255 million. Let's say MLB had a payroll cap at median payroll on $162 million.
Dodgers payroll]Dodgers payrolll
Toronto payroll
Subtract $188 million from the Dodgers and $93 million from Toronto and tell me they win the world series. Dodgers bought it and Toronto tried to buy it but came up a little short.
That is indeed true. These people that think money doesn't buy championships are delusional. The evidence is right in front of them and they refuse to believe reality. That's a microcosm of the United States right now. Hell, I guess the world for that matter. Faced with facts, they close their eyes because they know better. It's laughable. Time and time again these big payroll teams fight it out for the championships.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 20:33 pm
by Voldemort
ME Ville's observations were all over social media when it happened. I had several conversations with former players mentioning the same thing. I was surprised that the announcers did not mention it given that there have been so many studies on this topic. I believe Statcast did a conclusive study on sliding versus running through bases a couple of years ago.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 21:20 pm
by icon
Melville wrote: ↑02 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Allow me to make a point which I have not seen or heard anyone else make (naturally).
The Blue Jays would have won the World Series if they had understood the perfect point I am about to make.
There was no need for Kiner-Falefa to slide into home.
Sliding is proven to be slower than running through a base.
Players only need to slide on tag plays or to avoid over-running a base.
Neither applied in that moment.
If Kiner-Falefa runs through home plate, and does not slow himself by sliding, he would have been clearly safe on that play.
And any replay review would have been far more precise.
No excuse for the mistake he made.
It is something he and the 3b coach should have discussed.
Obviously, they did not.
Foolish mistake.
Had I been the 3b coach, it would have been explained to the runner well in advance and there would have been no slide.
And he would have been safe.
And the Blue Jay would be exhausted this morning from celebrating last night.
Brock118 posted about this right after it happened. As usual, you were neither the first nor the only one to post about something.
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 21:44 pm
by Voldemort
It was in 2017 instead of a couple of year ago but here is the Statcast study I referenced:
https://www.mlb.com/news/statcast-looks ... c251420158
Re: Bases loaded, force out at home.
Posted: 03 Nov 2025 22:30 pm
by Gob
Don’t kid yourselves. The Dodgers’ payroll caused him to do everything he did on that play, not he himself.