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brock118 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:32 pm

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

Don't forget we got rid of Mike Cuellar too.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:53 am

HOUCARD wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 00:15 am

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

I'm an old dude so remember. If memory serves me, they lost Carlton over $10,000. Gibby made $100,000/year and Carlton wanted $10,000 more than the $90,000 the Cards offerred. Club said no one makes Gibby money..... Scipio Spinks was said to be able to throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Then, he blew out his arm and it was over before it started. I don't think Torrez was a particularly hot prospect for the Cards. Then the Yankees got him and he became a stud.

Jose Cruz to the Astros and Andy VanSlyke to the Pirates were lousey trades too.

Even worse HouCard, it was over $5,000!

T. McCarver once told the story that Lefty was driving down Hwy 40 to sign the deal when he heard on KMOX he'd been dealt to the Phillies.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 13:59 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:53 am

HOUCARD wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 00:15 am

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

I'm an old dude so remember. If memory serves me, they lost Carlton over $10,000. Gibby made $100,000/year and Carlton wanted $10,000 more than the $90,000 the Cards offerred. Club said no one makes Gibby money..... Scipio Spinks was said to be able to throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Then, he blew out his arm and it was over before it started. I don't think Torrez was a particularly hot prospect for the Cards. Then the Yankees got him and he became a stud.

Jose Cruz to the Astros and Andy VanSlyke to the Pirates were lousey trades too.

Even worse HouCard, it was over $5,000!

T. McCarver once told the story that Lefty was driving down Hwy 40 to sign the deal when he heard on KMOX he'd been dealt to the Phillies.

According to the research I did, it was $10K, as I posted above. As much as we complain about the Dewitt's, this was far worse. Not only that, without the ability to sign free agents, as posted throughout this thread, they also dealt, Reuss, Cuellar and Torres in addition to Carlton. So my formative years as a Cardinal fan could have potentially had 1-2 WS appearances instead of a complete blackout, all due to ownership stubborness. In my view, this was far worse than what MO and the Dewitts did over the last 5 years.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 14:51 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 13:59 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:53 am

HOUCARD wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 00:15 am

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

I'm an old dude so remember. If memory serves me, they lost Carlton over $10,000. Gibby made $100,000/year and Carlton wanted $10,000 more than the $90,000 the Cards offerred. Club said no one makes Gibby money..... Scipio Spinks was said to be able to throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Then, he blew out his arm and it was over before it started. I don't think Torrez was a particularly hot prospect for the Cards. Then the Yankees got him and he became a stud.

Jose Cruz to the Astros and Andy VanSlyke to the Pirates were lousey trades too.

Even worse HouCard, it was over $5,000!

T. McCarver once told the story that Lefty was driving down Hwy 40 to sign the deal when he heard on KMOX he'd been dealt to the Phillies.

According to the research I did, it was $10K, as I posted above. As much as we complain about the Dewitt's, this was far worse. Not only that, without the ability to sign free agents, as posted throughout this thread, they also dealt, Reuss, Cuellar and Torres in addition to Carlton. So my formative years as a Cardinal fan could have potentially had 1-2 WS appearances instead of a complete blackout, all due to ownership stubborness. In my view, this was far worse than what MO and the Dewitts did over the last 5 years.

No it was $5,000, I heard the story straight McCarver who was Carlton's best friend.


The St. Louis Cardinals traded pitcher Steve Carlton to the Philadelphia Phillies in February 1972 for pitcher Rick Wise because of a $5,000 salary dispute. Carlton asked for $65,000, but the Cardinals, led by owner Gussie Busch, offered him \(\$60,000\). The dispute led to the team trading him to the Phillies.   T

The Salary Dispute: Carlton and Cardinals owner Gussie Busch famously clashed over a $5,000 difference in their contract negotiation.

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 12:51 pm NOT firing MO Ran a minimum of 5 yrs ago.

Hiring Marmot and then extending his contract.

Ridding the organization of MLB competent personnel.

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 11:10 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 09:14 am

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 04:57 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:58 pm Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 15:40 pm

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 11:10 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 09:14 am

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 04:57 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:58 pm Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 14:51 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 13:59 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:53 am

HOUCARD wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 00:15 am

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

I'm an old dude so remember. If memory serves me, they lost Carlton over $10,000. Gibby made $100,000/year and Carlton wanted $10,000 more than the $90,000 the Cards offerred. Club said no one makes Gibby money..... Scipio Spinks was said to be able to throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Then, he blew out his arm and it was over before it started. I don't think Torrez was a particularly hot prospect for the Cards. Then the Yankees got him and he became a stud.

Jose Cruz to the Astros and Andy VanSlyke to the Pirates were lousey trades too.

Even worse HouCard, it was over $5,000!

T. McCarver once told the story that Lefty was driving down Hwy 40 to sign the deal when he heard on KMOX he'd been dealt to the Phillies.

According to the research I did, it was $10K, as I posted above. As much as we complain about the Dewitt's, this was far worse. Not only that, without the ability to sign free agents, as posted throughout this thread, they also dealt, Reuss, Cuellar and Torres in addition to Carlton. So my formative years as a Cardinal fan could have potentially had 1-2 WS appearances instead of a complete blackout, all due to ownership stubborness. In my view, this was far worse than what MO and the Dewitts did over the last 5 years.

No it was $5,000, I heard the story straight McCarver who was Carlton's best friend.


The St. Louis Cardinals traded pitcher Steve Carlton to the Philadelphia Phillies in February 1972 for pitcher Rick Wise because of a $5,000 salary dispute. Carlton asked for $65,000, but the Cardinals, led by owner Gussie Busch, offered him \(\$60,000\). The dispute led to the team trading him to the Phillies.   T

The Salary Dispute: Carlton and Cardinals owner Gussie Busch famously clashed over a $5,000 difference in their contract negotiation.

kscardsfan wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 09:35 am Another blunder in my mind will not be popular with a lot of folks on here. Trading Ted Simmons, Rollie Fingers, and Pete Vuckovich for David Green and Sixto Lezcano, Dave LaPoint and Lary Sorensen. Keith Hernandez for Neil Allen and Rick Ownby. Yeah he won a WS but maybe gave away more than one. He didn't think Simmons could catch well enough. Well enough for what? He made it to that WS also. He sent Hernandez out over his drug problem. Yet brought in Porter who apparently had a worse problem. I liked his style baseball but his arrogance cost the Team imo.

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 17:23 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 15:40 pm

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 11:10 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 09:14 am

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 04:57 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:58 pm Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

kscardsfan wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:49 pm This is the one that sticks in my mind........Gibson, Reuss, Carlton, Torrez, Briles. What a rotation they could have had for years. Perhaps another WS title or two. Trading Carlton, Reuss, and Torrez was the downfall of the 70's. Carlton for Rick Wise, Reuss for Scipio Spinks and Lance Clemons. Torrez for Bob Reynolds. After Gibson retired they would still have had a great rotation.

That short period of time killed a dynasty.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 22:21 pm

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 17:23 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 15:40 pm

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 11:10 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 09:14 am

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 04:57 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:58 pm Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

2ninr wrote: ↑18 Oct 2025 05:58 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 22:21 pm

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 17:23 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 15:40 pm

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 11:10 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 09:14 am

2ninr wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 04:57 am

Youboughtit wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 19:58 pm Recently it’s lowering payroll. It’s way harder to get fans back than to loose them. Dropping payroll by $50m last season and possibly
Even more this off season has changed fans perception. The recipe is a top 11 payroll with draft and develop. 2006-2011 they were 11th on opening day and top 10 end of season. Also in 2022 payroll was 178m and the estimated profit according to Forbes was $48m this season $128m payroll and estimated profit is $2m. Clearly spending creates more profit and a chance to compete.

Those fans were on their way out the door before they lowered the payroll. Arrogance is what killed attendence.

Not true. My family has season tickets for 30 years. In 1982 our 2 seats and reserved parking was $18 per game. Before Covid when we stopped our 4 seats that weren’t as good were $14k per season and have increased 3 times since then. I have not been to a game in 2 years for 1 reason. I go to see future HOF caliber players in their prime. I root for the team to win but I want to see superstars. I think a lot of fans feel the same way.

I understand. Can we both be right?

Yes. Some fans do think a Milwaukee model is good enough and draft and develop the have a .5% chance to win a WS because it will lack the superstars. I am just not one. I think the owner is tight and doesn’t care about winning a WS. He wants max profits and that Model of NLCS and done for $125m is going to get the 3m fans back and make him a ton of $. Just not win a WS

I think they will bring the payroll back up into the top 10 (180-200 mil). It just won't be mostly on free agents. We will extend our core people and sign fa's to plug holes. We are not and cannot compete for pricey superstars. We are going to have to wait to see who's right on this one.

I don’t see a core worth big $. Winn is meh and Wetherholt 2-3 years from any extension. Teams extend superstars when young not average talent.

I like Winn better than you do. They should extend him. If Wetherholt is all that they won't wait to extend him. They will follow current trends like Mil did with Churio and Kc and Atlanta. We will find out this summer how far away Doyle is. One of the catchers Bernal or Rainiel Rod could hit. Those are the guys I see right now who could be capable of bringing crowds back. Maybe Herrera.