ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Houston lost 106, 107, and 111 games in three straight seasons (2011-2013), but then went to four World Series, winning two of them, in the next decade.
-Houston finally went to the WS after those 100+ loss seasons in 2017 and they had the 8th highest payroll in MLB.
Their next appearance in 2019 their payroll rose to #6 in MLB.
By 2021 when they went again, they had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB!
Thus proving it took them loads of payroll money to add quality players in order to reach the WS.
While they did have some homegrown players, they never would've made the WS w/o a MASSIVE increase in payroll.
That's why your example has Zero correlation whatsoever to the 2026 Cardinals.
Why?
Because BDWJr will never, ever have the 8th highest payroll in MLB, let alone the 6th or 3rd that it will take to build a WS roster.
If Rooney is right and they're "6 or 7 current minor leaguers" on the 2026 roster, then say hello to multiple 100 loss seasons w/no guarantee of success.
As I have said multiple times, I agree that the Cardinals will have to raise payroll back to about 10th to sustain success after they rebuild the depth of cost controlled young talent on the roster.
The fact that they will likely only get back to 10th and not higher makes what they are doing even more correct, not less. They need even a bit more young cost controlled talent than a Houston, Atlanta, or Philadelphia in order to have sustained success.
Sadly matt I don't see BDWJr ever going back to that 10th spot which would require him to go well above $210+M, no way.
Even after Bloom stocks the system I don't think he ever tops $180M and that will take 3+M in attendance again.
I hope I'm wrong.
But the only way we ever get to your "10th" in payroll is if BDWJr sells.
JMO
I'll worry about that in several years, not now.
Just a hunch….
I can see bdw opening up the pocket book if the roster talent seems like it’s worth investing in…
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Houston lost 106, 107, and 111 games in three straight seasons (2011-2013), but then went to four World Series, winning two of them, in the next decade.
-Houston finally went to the WS after those 100+ loss seasons in 2017 and they had the 8th highest payroll in MLB.
Their next appearance in 2019 their payroll rose to #6 in MLB.
By 2021 when they went again, they had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB!
Thus proving it took them loads of payroll money to add quality players in order to reach the WS.
While they did have some homegrown players, they never would've made the WS w/o a MASSIVE increase in payroll.
That's why your example has Zero correlation whatsoever to the 2026 Cardinals.
Why?
Because BDWJr will never, ever have the 8th highest payroll in MLB, let alone the 6th or 3rd that it will take to build a WS roster.
If Rooney is right and they're "6 or 7 current minor leaguers" on the 2026 roster, then say hello to multiple 100 loss seasons w/no guarantee of success.
As I have said multiple times, I agree that the Cardinals will have to raise payroll back to about 10th to sustain success after they rebuild the depth of cost controlled young talent on the roster.
The fact that they will likely only get back to 10th and not higher makes what they are doing even more correct, not less. They need even a bit more young cost controlled talent than a Houston, Atlanta, or Philadelphia in order to have sustained success.
Sadly matt I don't see BDWJr ever going back to that 10th spot which would require him to go well above $210+M, no way.
Even after Bloom stocks the system I don't think he ever tops $180M and that will take 3+M in attendance again.
I hope I'm wrong.
But the only way we ever get to your "10th" in payroll is if BDWJr sells.
JMO
I'll worry about that in several years, not now.
Enjoy your re-build you've been pinning for, along w/multiple season of 90+ losses.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Houston lost 106, 107, and 111 games in three straight seasons (2011-2013), but then went to four World Series, winning two of them, in the next decade.
-Houston finally went to the WS after those 100+ loss seasons in 2017 and they had the 8th highest payroll in MLB.
Their next appearance in 2019 their payroll rose to #6 in MLB.
By 2021 when they went again, they had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB!
Thus proving it took them loads of payroll money to add quality players in order to reach the WS.
While they did have some homegrown players, they never would've made the WS w/o a MASSIVE increase in payroll.
That's why your example has Zero correlation whatsoever to the 2026 Cardinals.
Why?
Because BDWJr will never, ever have the 8th highest payroll in MLB, let alone the 6th or 3rd that it will take to build a WS roster.
If Rooney is right and they're "6 or 7 current minor leaguers" on the 2026 roster, then say hello to multiple 100 loss seasons w/no guarantee of success.
As I have said multiple times, I agree that the Cardinals will have to raise payroll back to about 10th to sustain success after they rebuild the depth of cost controlled young talent on the roster.
The fact that they will likely only get back to 10th and not higher makes what they are doing even more correct, not less. They need even a bit more young cost controlled talent than a Houston, Atlanta, or Philadelphia in order to have sustained success.
Sadly matt I don't see BDWJr ever going back to that 10th spot which would require him to go well above $210+M, no way.
Even after Bloom stocks the system I don't think he ever tops $180M and that will take 3+M in attendance again.
I hope I'm wrong.
But the only way we ever get to your "10th" in payroll is if BDWJr sells.
JMO
I tend to agree with Matt on this one, Rock. Bloom would not have agreed to come here without a commitment from ownership to spend $ to fill out this roster, once the MiLB development system groundwork is laid.
Oh they'll "spend" BFM but it's only a dream that BDWJr will ever have a Top 10 payroll which would have to exceed $210+M.
I can see him going back to the $180M range but ONLY if attendance rebounds to 3+M.
Bill is 84 years old, not sure he'll even be actively running things by the time Bloom has the minor league system turning out enough solid players to convince him he should spend.
But I sure hope you and matt are right, I'd love to see a $210+M Top 10 payroll.
This has been a long time coming, and a lot of us have been wanting this sooner.
I don't expect us to compete next year. The season after (if there is one) would be my earliest guess...maybe.
I can accept that we aren't going to compete IF that means we're getting face-time for young players. I'm fine with seeing development at the MLB level if there's actually development and we're not seeing the Mikolases and Feddes of the world getting lit up like Christmas trees. That said, not everyone should be developing at the MLB level right now. Looking at you, Jordan Walker.
Here's how my roster would look...not counting bench or bullpen spots.
C: Crooks
1B: WillyC
2B: Donovan (or Weatherholt)
SS: Winn
3B: Weatherholt (See above)
LF: Burleson/Herrera (or an OF from outside)
CF: Scott
RF: Outside OF (Or Burleson)
DH: Herrera
SP: Libby
SP: McGreevy
SP: Leahy
SP: 1 year vet
SP: 1 year vet
I would like to hope that Pallante isn't in the mix for one of the SP spots, but unfortunately I can DEFINITELY see a world where he gets one of them.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Houston lost 106, 107, and 111 games in three straight seasons (2011-2013), but then went to four World Series, winning two of them, in the next decade.
-Houston finally went to the WS after those 100+ loss seasons in 2017 and they had the 8th highest payroll in MLB.
Their next appearance in 2019 their payroll rose to #6 in MLB.
By 2021 when they went again, they had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB!
Thus proving it took them loads of payroll money to add quality players in order to reach the WS.
While they did have some homegrown players, they never would've made the WS w/o a MASSIVE increase in payroll.
That's why your example has Zero correlation whatsoever to the 2026 Cardinals.
Why?
Because BDWJr will never, ever have the 8th highest payroll in MLB, let alone the 6th or 3rd that it will take to build a WS roster.
If Rooney is right and they're "6 or 7 current minor leaguers" on the 2026 roster, then say hello to multiple 100 loss seasons w/no guarantee of success.
As I have said multiple times, I agree that the Cardinals will have to raise payroll back to about 10th to sustain success after they rebuild the depth of cost controlled young talent on the roster.
The fact that they will likely only get back to 10th and not higher makes what they are doing even more correct, not less. They need even a bit more young cost controlled talent than a Houston, Atlanta, or Philadelphia in order to have sustained success.
Sadly matt I don't see BDWJr ever going back to that 10th spot which would require him to go well above $210+M, no way.
Even after Bloom stocks the system I don't think he ever tops $180M and that will take 3+M in attendance again.
I hope I'm wrong.
But the only way we ever get to your "10th" in payroll is if BDWJr sells.
JMO
I tend to agree with Matt on this one, Rock. Bloom would not have agreed to come here without a commitment from ownership to spend $ to fill out this roster, once the MiLB development system groundwork is laid.
Arenado was given guarantees as well. Not sure i would trust this group.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:22 pm
I kind of expect a really bad record in 2026. If they bring Marmol back on his one remaining contract year, I will suspect a tanking season is in the plans.
If they part ways with Marmol, there might be hope for some spending and a decently competitive year.
If they extend Marmol this winter, I don't know what to expect.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.
And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.
I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.
True but I would add why would anybody plop down MLB money to watch DH baseball? I can go to a high school game and see that.
Anyone goes to a game to watch "talent" and to root for their home team. When the talent isn't there the home team will lose. Why would anyone sign up for that? People like watching stars perform. Where's the stars?
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.
And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.
I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.
What tends to happen is people find other things the like to do. It will be interest to see but I doubt the Cardinals will return to the Matheny era when the Cardinals were drawing 42,000 a game.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Houston lost 106, 107, and 111 games in three straight seasons (2011-2013), but then went to four World Series, winning two of them, in the next decade.
-Houston finally went to the WS after those 100+ loss seasons in 2017 and they had the 8th highest payroll in MLB.
Their next appearance in 2019 their payroll rose to #6 in MLB.
By 2021 when they went again, they had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB!
Thus proving it took them loads of payroll money to add quality players in order to reach the WS.
While they did have some homegrown players, they never would've made the WS w/o a MASSIVE increase in payroll.
That's why your example has Zero correlation whatsoever to the 2026 Cardinals.
Why?
Because BDWJr will never, ever have the 8th highest payroll in MLB, let alone the 6th or 3rd that it will take to build a WS roster.
If Rooney is right and they're "6 or 7 current minor leaguers" on the 2026 roster, then say hello to multiple 100 loss seasons w/no guarantee of success.
As I have said multiple times, I agree that the Cardinals will have to raise payroll back to about 10th to sustain success after they rebuild the depth of cost controlled young talent on the roster.
The fact that they will likely only get back to 10th and not higher makes what they are doing even more correct, not less. They need even a bit more young cost controlled talent than a Houston, Atlanta, or Philadelphia in order to have sustained success.
Sadly matt I don't see BDWJr ever going back to that 10th spot which would require him to go well above $210+M, no way.
Even after Bloom stocks the system I don't think he ever tops $180M and that will take 3+M in attendance again.
I hope I'm wrong.
But the only way we ever get to your "10th" in payroll is if BDWJr sells.
JMO
I tend to agree with Matt on this one, Rock. Bloom would not have agreed to come here without a commitment from ownership to spend $ to fill out this roster, once the MiLB development system groundwork is laid.
Oh they'll "spend" BFM but it's only a dream that BDWJr will ever have a Top 10 payroll which would have to exceed $210+M.
I can see him going back to the $180M range but ONLY if attendance rebounds to 3+M.
Bill is 84 years old, not sure he'll even be actively running things by the time Bloom has the minor league system turning out enough solid players to convince him he should spend.
But I sure hope you and matt are right, I'd love to see a $210+M Top 10 payroll.
I think you are right about BDW’s age. He will probably hand the reins to Trey before it’s time to reinvest in the MLB roster. I’d be happy with spending in the top 10-15 MLB team rank.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Why would anyone plop down their hard earned cash to watch a team where ownership wasn't trying to win? You want to kill your fan base, that's the way to do it.
And the owners should expect that. Other teams that have gone down this path have seen temporary yearly attendance drops of 500,000 (Atlanta), 1,000,000 (Houston), or even 1,500,000 (Philadelphia). But the fans come right back when the team starts winning again.
I'm sure some will but some won't also. On top of that, what have you gained by canceling salary and losing income? It's a stupid premise as I've argued with you before. The Cards were the class of the Central and they did it by acquiring talent. By trades and by signings. Not so much by drafting and developing.
What tends to happen is people find other things the like to do. It will be interest to see but I doubt the Cardinals will return to the Matheny era when the Cardinals were drawing 42,000 a game.
Well, if they do a huge makeover ala Whitey Herzog style and they start fielding and exciting and competitive team then attendance would bounce back quickly depending of course on how badly someone destroys the economy, but the longer the losing and boring talent percolates here the worse it'll be on the returning attendance.
Until doomsday, Armageddon, or whatever it will always be - quality over quantity.
Having players who do not know when to run toward 2B or from 2B will not bring money spending fans. One simple act of incompetence will not hurt the product - might even bring a laugh. Repetitive acts of incompetence in front of paying crowd insults the "cash cows".
Marmot the "teacher" is not. His end of season gibberish shows he is just a poorly paid BBZZZ'er. This team needs a complete new face to fans on and off the field.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑28 Sep 2025 20:09 pm
during the winter and 6 or 7 current minor leagues on the 26 man roster next season. This team was 11 games under .500 following the all star break. If they replace veterans with prospects and don't add a bunch of pitching we could be looking at a 100 lost team.
Houston lost 106, 107, and 111 games in three straight seasons (2011-2013), but then went to four World Series, winning two of them, in the next decade.
-Houston finally went to the WS after those 100+ loss seasons in 2017 and they had the 8th highest payroll in MLB.
Their next appearance in 2019 their payroll rose to #6 in MLB.
By 2021 when they went again, they had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB!
Thus proving it took them loads of payroll money to add quality players in order to reach the WS.
While they did have some homegrown players, they never would've made the WS w/o a MASSIVE increase in payroll.
That's why your example has Zero correlation whatsoever to the 2026 Cardinals.
Why?
Because BDWJr will never, ever have the 8th highest payroll in MLB, let alone the 6th or 3rd that it will take to build a WS roster.
If Rooney is right and they're "6 or 7 current minor leaguers" on the 2026 roster, then say hello to multiple 100 loss seasons w/no guarantee of success.
As I have said multiple times, I agree that the Cardinals will have to raise payroll back to about 10th to sustain success after they rebuild the depth of cost controlled young talent on the roster.
The fact that they will likely only get back to 10th and not higher makes what they are doing even more correct, not less. They need even a bit more young cost controlled talent than a Houston, Atlanta, or Philadelphia in order to have sustained success.
Sadly matt I don't see BDWJr ever going back to that 10th spot which would require him to go well above $210+M, no way.
Even after Bloom stocks the system I don't think he ever tops $180M and that will take 3+M in attendance again.
I hope I'm wrong.
But the only way we ever get to your "10th" in payroll is if BDWJr sells.
JMO
I tend to agree with Matt on this one, Rock. Bloom would not have agreed to come here without a commitment from ownership to spend $ to fill out this roster, once the MiLB development system groundwork is laid.
Oh they'll "spend" BFM but it's only a dream that BDWJr will ever have a Top 10 payroll which would have to exceed $210+M.
I can see him going back to the $180M range but ONLY if attendance rebounds to 3+M.
Bill is 84 years old, not sure he'll even be actively running things by the time Bloom has the minor league system turning out enough solid players to convince him he should spend.
But I sure hope you and matt are right, I'd love to see a $210+M Top 10 payroll.
I think you are right about BDW’s age. He will probably hand the reins to Trey before it’s time to reinvest in the MLB roster. I’d be happy with spending in the top 10-15 MLB team rank.
That could be a nightmare to as Fredo doesn't seem to have the "love of the game" his pops does.
And I'd LOVE to see them in the 10-15 range too, even 15th this season would be $165M ($131M is the Cards current payroll, heading quickly to well under $100M if Gray, NADO and WillyC + Donny are dealt)).
glad folks pointed out the money Houston spent. They acquired Justin Verlander. So, why wait, why not go ahead and acquire a decent pitcher now, they will always need to anyway.
