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Bushiro wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:38 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:21 pm

brock118 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 21:11 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 20:53 pm The levels of futility this org has felt the last five years really just comes down to one move:

Trading for Ozuna.

(Honorable mentions: signing Fowler and trading Randy)

2021: picked up two starters at the deadline:
2022: two starters at DL
2024: one starter at the DL

What would those teams look like with Sandy and Zac in the rotation?
What would the 2023 and 2025 teams look like?

Those trades also cost us Oviedo, Bader, Thomas and Edman. I’m not against trading any of those guys, but what else could we have gotten if we weren’t trying to patchwork the rotation?


Closing thoughts: this really comes to a few things:Lack of talent evaluation (high on Hudson/weaver/jack!) and making a move that should not be made by a mid market organization. If you need an OFer, you do what the 2004 did and sign a number of players on 1-2 year deals and hope one strikes gold. Or like the 2011 or 2012 cards team did.

One move—just one—changed MO’s legacy.

I think it goes back further. I think when Taveras died we had to shift. I'm not convinced Taveras would have been the next big thing, but he was ranked that way in almost all rankings. We then did a quick trade for Heyward and arguably overpaid for him. Atlanta turned Miller over for Dansby Swanson, who was one of the top prospects at the time. Then when Heyward told us to pound sand, we doubled down on a bad decision and overpaid and overextended Dexter Fowler. Which in turn led us to trying to get Ozuna.

Well it goes back to my reply to Braun.

The cards arguably needed an OFer for 2015. Why did it have to come in a trade? And to give up Miller, who was only 23 and coming off a solid season.

Also, not to mention the heart Mo had for Grichuk.

Lack of talent evaluation all around.

Your last line is one of the main things that has killed the cards....

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

ClassicO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 09:18 am

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

You first said Waino was "toxic" in 2021, when he was 17-7 with a 3.05 ERA.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 20:53 pm The levels of futility this org has felt the last five years really just comes down to one move:

Trading for Ozuna.

(Honorable mentions: signing Fowler and trading Randy)

2021: picked up two starters at the deadline:
2022: two starters at DL
2024: one starter at the DL

What would those teams look like with Sandy and Zac in the rotation?
What would the 2023 and 2025 teams look like?

Those trades also cost us Oviedo, Bader, Thomas and Edman. I’m not against trading any of those guys, but what else could we have gotten if we weren’t trying to patchwork the rotation?


Closing thoughts: this really comes to a few things:Lack of talent evaluation (high on Hudson/weaver/jack!) and making a move that should not be made by a mid market organization. If you need an OFer, you do what the 2004 did and sign a number of players on 1-2 year deals and hope one strikes gold. Or like the 2011 or 2012 cards team did.

One move—just one—changed MO’s legacy.

icon wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 09:02 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:49 am

icon wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:46 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 08:33 am The true downfall of the organization falls squarely on the shoulders of BDWJr who should've fired Mo years ago.

The blame is all on Bill who also had final approval on ALL the major moves (Managerial hirings, Free agent signings and extensions) Mo brought to him.

I've said this for years:

Bill Dewitt, Jr is the Problem!

TG he's finally woke up but only after seeing his attendance plummet.

And I have agreed with you for years. Yet here we still are, and now BDW Jr. is threatening to turn his team into the Pirates. Good luck to Bloom!

Pitiful isn't it that Dewitt has let it come to this w/his managerial neglect.

And Bloom needs all the luck he can get trying to fix this Dewitt/Mo mess.

And you know Triple Sticks didn't just come up with the infamous remark about attendance on his own-- that lower turnout will mean lower payroll. You know that came straight from Daddy.

And how is that a shrewd way to run a business? Your customers are disatisfied with the product, so you degrade the product further?

Jatalk wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 10:55 am I think just focusing on one of MO’s mistakes minimizes the total disaster his tenure has been. The mistakes are so many. Let’s give the man credit for each and every disastrous decision he made.

dugoutrex wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 10:11 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 20:53 pm The levels of futility this org has felt the last five years really just comes down to one move:

Trading for Ozuna.

(Honorable mentions: signing Fowler and trading Randy)

2021: picked up two starters at the deadline:
2022: two starters at DL
2024: one starter at the DL

What would those teams look like with Sandy and Zac in the rotation?
What would the 2023 and 2025 teams look like?

Those trades also cost us Oviedo, Bader, Thomas and Edman. I’m not against trading any of those guys, but what else could we have gotten if we weren’t trying to patchwork the rotation?


Closing thoughts: this really comes to a few things:Lack of talent evaluation (high on Hudson/weaver/jack!) and making a move that should not be made by a mid market organization. If you need an OFer, you do what the 2004 did and sign a number of players on 1-2 year deals and hope one strikes gold. Or like the 2011 or 2012 cards team did.

One move—just one—changed MO’s legacy.

if you weren't high on Jack then you know very little about pitching - his ceiling was off the charts!

82birds wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:01 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 10:55 am I think just focusing on one of MO’s mistakes minimizes the total disaster his tenure has been. The mistakes are so many. Let’s give the man credit for each and every disastrous decision he made.

^^^THIS^^^

ecleme22 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:25 am

82birds wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:01 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 10:55 am I think just focusing on one of MO’s mistakes minimizes the total disaster his tenure has been. The mistakes are so many. Let’s give the man credit for each and every disastrous decision he made.

^^^THIS^^^

Read my OP again.

The Ozuna trade had a horrible affect on the last 6 seasons….

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:35 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:25 am

82birds wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:01 am

Jatalk wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 10:55 am I think just focusing on one of MO’s mistakes minimizes the total disaster his tenure has been. The mistakes are so many. Let’s give the man credit for each and every disastrous decision he made.

^^^THIS^^^

Read my OP again.

The Ozuna trade had a horrible affect on the last 6 seasons….

Many of his moves had a horrible influence on the past several seasons

Melville wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 09:21 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 09:18 am

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

You first said Waino was "toxic" in 2021, when he was 17-7 with a 3.05 ERA.

Amazing how good I am at seeing around the curve, when most are stuck staring only at a shiny penny directly in front of them.
Examples are above.

ClassicO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 11:55 am

Melville wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 09:21 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑27 Sep 2025 09:18 am

Melville wrote: ↑26 Sep 2025 22:22 pm Reuniting Pujols, Wainwright, and Molina was the defining moment of the TOXIC CULTURE.
I was the only person who fully and immediately understood what it meant at the time.
And said so.

You first said Waino was "toxic" in 2021, when he was 17-7 with a 3.05 ERA.

Amazing how good I am at seeing around the curve, when most are stuck staring only at a shiny penny directly in front of them.
Examples are above.

"Seeing around the curve" is your aphorism for being dead wrong. You saw around the curve when you said they needed to sign Conforto (3 yrs, $60M), Taylor (3 yrs, $45), Helsley (4 yrs, $68M), and with your erroneous predictions on Carlson and Herrera.