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An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:10 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:59 am

An Old Friend wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 09:05 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:53 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Don't keep up with MLB's prospect rankings, but it's hard to imagine that Stephen Piscotty, Carlson, Rasmus, or Walker were ever that highly regarded by anyone.

You might want to find a superior service to rank prospects.

Carlson, Rasmus, and Walker were all top-10 type guys across the rating agencies.

I'll buy that. Each was probably the top Cardinal prospect at some point. But that's not the same thing as being the overall #1 prospect in baseball.

Even Tavares wasn't the top prospect in baseball. You'd have to go all the way back to JD Drew to get a Cardinal outfielder who was the #1 prospect in baseball.

MLB Pipeline had Walker at #1 in May 2023 after some promotions ahead of him.

Now will the fact that he is inexpensive, very young and full of that #1
promise end up delaying the outfield production? A 71 OPS+ 2 seasons running.
Is a fairly low bar to cling too.

An albatross of Hope vs one of contract.

renostl wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 17:15 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

Bad? Maybe his half season in MLB.

His AAA career posted .313/.358/.485/.843 over 108 games
His AA was .321/.380/.572/.953 in 124 games

Your data is incomplete?

Taveras' slash lines at A, AA, AAA, and Major-League levels:
__A: .386/.444/.584/1.028
_AA: .321/.380/.572/.953
AAA: .313/.358/.485/.843
MLB: .239/.278/.312/.590

Notice the trend?

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

You're analysis is based on his 80 game MLB career when promoted at age 22??

The kids was one of the top prospects in all of baseball. He had a slash line of .320/.376/.892 in his minor league career. YEAH, THE KID COULD HIT!

He definitely did things on the field to show he could hit! C'mon, guy.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 08:28 am Sometimes you draft Carlsons.

Sometimes you sign Arozarenas.


From there, that’s when the ability to evaluate talent comes in…

The point is, the prospect rankings don't seem to possess this ability?

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 18:54 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

You're analysis is based on his 80 game MLB career when promoted at age 22??

The kids was one of the top prospects in all of baseball. He had a slash line of .320/.376/.892 in his minor league career. YEAH, THE KID COULD HIT!

He definitely did things on the field to show he could hit! C'mon, guy.

Yeah
A different POV

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am
Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.
[/quote]

Taveras was #1/2 with Profar, as a SS, for a year or two. His MiLB numbers were very good - .320 AVE, .376 OBP, .516 SLG, .892 OPS - but he came up with a bad ankle that was repaired in the off season of 2013 (IIRC). He did not get it together in 2014 which is what many remember, but did hit a HR in his first PA in the majors.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 18:54 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

You're analysis is based on his 80 game MLB career when promoted at age 22??

The kids was one of the top prospects in all of baseball. He had a slash line of .320/.376/.892 in his minor league career. YEAH, THE KID COULD HIT!

He definitely did things on the field to show he could hit! C'mon, guy.

I hit over .400 in little league.

The point: Lots of guys hit well in double and triple A, but can't hit at the major league level. If you look at the entirety of Taveras' career, you see that he struggled more at every level as the quality of competition got tougher.

Bottom line: There's no reason to assume that Taveras would have turned out any better than Carlson or Walker. But people continue to project based on good minor-league numbers. What might have been....

If Carlson had (heaven forbid) gotten himself killed in February of 2022, you'd be in here saying how great things would have been if only Carlson hadn't offed himself.

DwaininAztec wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 19:36 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am
Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.


Taveras was #1/2 with Profar, as a SS, for a year or two. His MiLB numbers were very good - .320 AVE, .376 OBP, .516 SLG, .892 OPS - but he came up with a bad ankle that was repaired in the off season of 2013 (IIRC). He did not get it together in 2014 which is what many remember, but did hit a HR in his first PA in the majors.

According to Baseball Reference, Taveras was never ranked #1 by Baseball America, Major League Baseball, or Baseball Prospectus. His highest prospect ranking was #2 by Baseball Prospectus in 2013.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... vera001osc

Perhaps a better way to look at it.....

Name the top Cardinal outfielders the franchise drafted and developed since Musial that actually panned out with successful major league careers. And by successful, you are free to use the forum's delusional expectations of successful.

nighthawk wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 09:11 am Perhaps a better way to look at it.....

Name the top Cardinal outfielders the franchise drafted and developed since Musial that actually panned out with successful major league careers. And by successful, you are free to use the forum's delusional expectations of successful.

The last guy would be JD Drew, who was very successful despite not living up to the Micky Mantle-level expectations here at CT.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 12:01 pm

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:40 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

I would say he didn't get enough playing time to prove one way or another. he could have stunk.. he could have been great. we'll never know

He stunk in the major-league playing time he did get. STUNK! He hit .239 with a .590 OPS and 3 home runs. Even Walker would be embarrassed by those numbers. And Taveras fielding metrics weren't any better.

He did stink. He was 22. Same for a lot of players when they first come up. Why was Mantle sent down his rookie season? Look at Judge his first season. Reggie Jackson. This is foolish.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 09:03 am

DwaininAztec wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 19:36 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am
Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.


Taveras was #1/2 with Profar, as a SS, for a year or two. His MiLB numbers were very good - .320 AVE, .376 OBP, .516 SLG, .892 OPS - but he came up with a bad ankle that was repaired in the off season of 2013 (IIRC). He did not get it together in 2014 which is what many remember, but did hit a HR in his first PA in the majors.

According to Baseball Reference, Taveras was never ranked #1 by Baseball America, Major League Baseball, or Baseball Prospectus. His highest prospect ranking was #2 by Baseball Prospectus in 2013.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... vera001osc

So they ranked a player who couldn’t hit, field, or run #2 in all of baseball. Hmmm. Sounds logical.

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 08:54 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 18:54 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

You're analysis is based on his 80 game MLB career when promoted at age 22??

The kids was one of the top prospects in all of baseball. He had a slash line of .320/.376/.892 in his minor league career. YEAH, THE KID COULD HIT!

He definitely did things on the field to show he could hit! C'mon, guy.

I hit over .400 in little league.

The point: Lots of guys hit well in double and triple A, but can't hit at the major league level. If you look at the entirety of Taveras' career, you see that he struggled more at every level as the quality of competition got tougher.

Bottom line: There's no reason to assume that Taveras would have turned out any better than Carlson or Walker. But people continue to project based on good minor-league numbers. What might have been....

If Carlson had (heaven forbid) gotten himself killed in February of 2022, you'd be in here saying how great things would have been if only Carlson hadn't offed himself.

First off .400 in little league SUCKS!!!! Lol

You keep saying his numbers dropped off at each level he progressed. Sure maybe his average went down a touch. The guys still tore up EVERY level he played at. He NEVER had an average season in the minors.

Your "he struggled more at every level" just isn’t the cade. There was never a struggle. Ever. DUDE COULD HIT!!!

kscardsfan wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 09:36 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 12:01 pm

moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:40 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

I would say he didn't get enough playing time to prove one way or another. he could have stunk.. he could have been great. we'll never know

He stunk in the major-league playing time he did get. STUNK! He hit .239 with a .590 OPS and 3 home runs. Even Walker would be embarrassed by those numbers. And Taveras fielding metrics weren't any better.

He did stink. He was 22. Same for a lot of players when they first come up. Why was Mantle sent down his rookie season? Look at Judge his first season. Reggie Jackson. This is foolish.

What's foolish is assuming that because he was highly regarded, he was going to be great, especially after he played so poorly when he was here.

I'm not saying that Taveras, if he had lived, would have been a complete flop although I suspect as much. What I said is: Taveras did nothing here to suggest that he was going to be better than Carlson or Walker. He stunk while he was here. There's not much to argue there.

Taveras got himself killed before we knew what his true potential was. That leaves people free to paint whatever future they wanted for the kid. On the other hand, we all know what happened to Carlson, no glorious future can be imagined for him.

General wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 09:57 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 09:03 am

DwaininAztec wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 19:36 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am
Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.


Taveras was #1/2 with Profar, as a SS, for a year or two. His MiLB numbers were very good - .320 AVE, .376 OBP, .516 SLG, .892 OPS - but he came up with a bad ankle that was repaired in the off season of 2013 (IIRC). He did not get it together in 2014 which is what many remember, but did hit a HR in his first PA in the majors.

According to Baseball Reference, Taveras was never ranked #1 by Baseball America, Major League Baseball, or Baseball Prospectus. His highest prospect ranking was #2 by Baseball Prospectus in 2013.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/regi ... vera001osc

So they ranked a player who couldn’t hit, field, or run #2 in all of baseball. Hmmm. Sounds logical.

Domonic Brown, Delmon Young, Jesus Montero: There's a long list of highly regarded prospects who, when they got their chance, couldn't play at the major-league level.

Taveras main tool was his stick. The rest of his game was weak. If the bat didn't play, the kid was just another guy.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 11:07 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑24 Aug 2025 08:54 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 18:54 pm

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 11:37 am

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 00:33 am

Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:13 am

Cranny wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 10:00 am

Ace07 wrote: ↑22 Aug 2025 07:22 am Here are the prospects who have been #1 overall on MLB.com for the Cardinals:

Colby Rasmus, 2009 1st
Oscar Taveras, 2013 1st
Stephen Piscotty, 2015 1st
Dylan Carlson, 2020 1st overall
Jordan Walker, 2022 1st overall

Obviously different stories for each, but what an awful ROI on these players.

Taveras? A tragedy. Not the Cardinals fault for ROI.
Walker? Way too soon to judge.

Taveras never did anything on the field to suggest he was any better than Walker or Carlson. If anything, he was worse.

Taveras was bad, bad with a glove and bad with a stick. He didn't run well and lacked range in the outfield. He never got a chance to prove he could do better with time, but he was bad.

That's not real accurate.

Are you saying Taveras was a good major-league hitter? Are you saying he was a good fielder? If you don't agree with my position, fine, but make a case.

You're analysis is based on his 80 game MLB career when promoted at age 22??

The kids was one of the top prospects in all of baseball. He had a slash line of .320/.376/.892 in his minor league career. YEAH, THE KID COULD HIT!

He definitely did things on the field to show he could hit! C'mon, guy.

I hit over .400 in little league.

The point: Lots of guys hit well in double and triple A, but can't hit at the major league level. If you look at the entirety of Taveras' career, you see that he struggled more at every level as the quality of competition got tougher.

Bottom line: There's no reason to assume that Taveras would have turned out any better than Carlson or Walker. But people continue to project based on good minor-league numbers. What might have been....

If Carlson had (heaven forbid) gotten himself killed in February of 2022, you'd be in here saying how great things would have been if only Carlson hadn't offed himself.

First off .400 in little league SUCKS!!!! Lol

You keep saying his numbers dropped off at each level he progressed. Sure maybe his average went down a touch. The guys still tore up EVERY level he played at. He NEVER had an average season in the minors.

Your "he struggled more at every level" just isn’t the cade. There was never a struggle. Ever. DUDE COULD HIT!!!

I said I hit over .400. Not .400.

Let's keep the numbers in front of us:

__A: .386/.444/.584/1.028
_AA: .321/.380/.572/.953
AAA: .313/.358/.485/.843
MLB: .239/.278/.312/.590

Taveras was a terror in A ball, but so are a lot of guys you never heard of. He did great in double A. I'll give him that. But I wouldn't call an .843 OPS at Memphis tearing up triple A. There are currently 5 players at Memphis putting up better OPS.

And his major league record was horrible.

The guy wasn't a good fielder or a good runner. He had a big looping swing, which major league pitchers exploited to the hilt. Maybe he would have adjusted. Maybe not. But that's the point. We can't give the kid credit for what you think might have happened.