STLtoday.com

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:18 pm**

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:48 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:05 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:01 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:48 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
Hmm....let's look at 2017:

C-Molina: .751 OPS, 18 HR, 82 RBIs
1B-Carp: .835 OPS, 23 HR, 69 RBIs
2B-Wong: .788 OPS
SS-DeJong: .857 OPS, 25 HR, 65 RBIs (2nd in ROY)
3B-Gyorko: .813 OPS, 20 HR, 67 RBIs
LF-Pham: .931 OPS, 23 HR, 73 RBIs (11th in MVP)
CF-Fowler: .851 OPS, 18 HR, 64 RBIs
RF1-Piscotty: .708 OPS, 9 HR, 39 RBIs
RF2-Grichuk: .758 OPS, 22 HR, 59 RBIs
RF3-Martinez: .897 OPS, 14 HR, 46 RBIs.

Yeah, that ol' 2017 team had nuthin'! LOL
Yeah, and Matheny had nothing to do with them doing so well. Sure. A former respected major league multiple Gold Glove winner. By the way, how have many of those players done since, when playing for a different manager? Fowler?
Piscotty? Grichuk? Martinez? Gyorko? DeJong?
I thought you said they had little talent in 2017.

They had a lot of offensive talent.
And how has that talent done under other managers?

Don’t change the subject.

You said the team had inferior offense in 2017.

So….care to admit you are wrong? lol

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:20 pm**

An Old Friend wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:26 am
Bomber1 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:24 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:07 am https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.
Gee if we only had Matheny as manager this team would be WS bound.
Matheny wasn’t the problem

Allthru 2000-2010 people were clamoring for Tony's head. More than they do Oli, if you can believe that.
I know you can Old Friend, you were here.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:30 pm**

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:20 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:26 am
Bomber1 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:24 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:07 am https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.
Gee if we only had Matheny as manager this team would be WS bound.
Matheny wasn’t the problem
Allthru 2000-2010 people were clamoring for Tony's head. More than they do Oli, if you can believe that.
I know you can Old Friend, you were here.

You mean that long haired wine drinking attorney who couldn’t manage his way out of a paper bag? LOL.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:39 pm**

MIDMOBIRDTWO wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:26 am I remember Matheny using Moss late in the season when he was almost hitless in September and refusing to try other options, like he expected the guy was going to snap out of it any day. He never did. My memory of Mike managing. That and killing his bullpen guys by overuse. Paint by numbers much worse than Oli. They had a lot of close games and he could not learn to trust his back end of the bullpen.

Well, Shildt did the same thing with Fowler in 2019, who finished the regular season something like 1 for 30, then continued that into the playoffs where Dexter went 2 for 33, with a 0.253 OPS.
Imagine finishing the season counting the PO's with something like a 3 for 63, while Arozarena rotted on the bench, and Aroz had a 0.891 OPS in his SSS at the end of the 2019 season.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:41 pm**

NYCardsFan wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:05 pm
rockondlouie wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:53 am
NYCardsFan wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:21 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
2017 Cardinals:
34.9/40.7 bWAR/fWAR
761 runs scored, 705 runs allowed, +56 run differential
x-W/L: 87-75
Actual W/L: 83-79
Careful hitting cranny w/facts NYCF, they're foreign to his position.
Generally, I don’t have strong views on Matheny one way or the other, though I didn’t think he was a particularly strong in-game manager (but that’s only one part of the job). But this notion that he somehow made chicken salad out of chicken-s just isn’t supported by the evidence, IMO.

He was indeed a horrible in game manager and he was an absolutely woodchipper when it came to his relievers.

Like many I thought Mike the Player who was a strong leader would become Mike the Manager a strong leader.

But he never grew and only got worse.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:42 pm**

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 09:46 am It's hilarious that everyone generally accepts now that Mo hamstrings Marmol, hamstrung Shildt, and that he is a terrible evaluator of talent, drafting, trades, FA signings and roster management, and that he has 100% control of basically every single decision that is made on field.

But refuse to re-examine the the possibility that the exact same held true about Mo during Matheny's years too.

From 2014 - 2017 we didn't even have a real MOTO bat. Certainly didn't have a single legit cleanup hitter in any of those 4 years. Holliday was at the end of his run. And the moment Matheny did something against Mo's wishes (benching Fowler in year 2 of his $80 million fiasco), he got fired.

Matheny never once in any season, had a legit MOTO bat/defensive wizard - a Complete star player. Shildt and Marmol got Goldy and Arenado. TLR got Rolen, Edmonds and Pujols. Guys that had the entire package.

Mo did not acquire a single top of the rotation pitcher during Matheny's entire tenure, or Shildt's for that matter. Gray is the closest thing he's had to brining in a TOR in his entire 18 years as POBO.

To think how bad Matheny had it mid-tenure... in 2016, he was given a defensive infield of Carpenter, Adams, Moss, Diaz, Garcia and Gyorko to handle an all ground ball pitching staff. Wong was the only legit infielder on that roster but hit .215.

Mo's fix to that was bringing in Fowler, Ozuna and Jose Martinez

The reality is that 2012 was the only legit roster that was well built, and we made it to game 7 of the NLCS. Pretty good. The 2012 playoff team did not have Pujols, Berkman or Furcal, and had an injured 5 inning pitcher in Carpenter, since he missed 99% of the regular season. Still a very good roster... not even close to the 2011 roster that barely got in and then needed miracle after miracle to stay alive and win.

The 2013 roster was basically a rebuild that Matheny way overachieved with. No Carp, Pujols, Berkman, Furcal... Motte had TJ and Lohse walked as a Free Agent. Not a single player of notoriety was brought in that offseason to replace any of the stars we had lost over the last two years. Kozma was our freaking starting SS the entire year, because Mo didn't think an upgrade was necessary. We basically played every night with 7 hitters and 2 pitchers batting.

Instead, Matheny was asked to win with an almost all rookie pitching staff that set a major league record for most starts, innings and pitches by rookie pitchers in the entire history of baseball. Shelby Miller, Wacha, Lyons, Gast. Nearly our entire backend of the BP was rookies: Rosie, Siegrist, Maness and Carlos Martinez.

In 2013, rookie pitchers accumulated 641 innings and 20 rookies!!!!!!!!!! appeared in games, having to contribute nearly half of our 97 victories.

This doesn't include Joe Kelly or Lance Lynn who were rookies in 2012 but contributed an additional 324 innings... meaning rookies and 2nd year pitchers were responsible for 1000 innings pitched in 2013.

All Matheny did was win 97 games, the Pennant and last till game 6 of the World Series, all while morons from the BFIB swore up and down he was the worst manager in the history of baseball.

These are fair points, but Matheny's teams got worse and worse with baseball 101 fundamentals as the years went by. So much so that when Shildt took over, both defense and baserunning got better, almost overnight. That's part of why the Cardinals were 41-28 with Shildt and 48-47 with Matheny. You're right in that Matheny wasn't given a great roster, but fundamentally sound baseball is a product of coaching. And by the middle of 2018, the Cardinals had lost their way in that regard, and Matheny had lost the team. Making a change was necessary. At that point, nobody cared, and rightfully so that he lead the Cardinals to the WS 5 years prior.

Firing Shildt was THE mistake, not Matheny.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:46 pm**

JDW wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:39 pm
MIDMOBIRDTWO wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:26 am I remember Matheny using Moss late in the season when he was almost hitless in September and refusing to try other options, like he expected the guy was going to snap out of it any day. He never did. My memory of Mike managing. That and killing his bullpen guys by overuse. Paint by numbers much worse than Oli. They had a lot of close games and he could not learn to trust his back end of the bullpen.
Well, Shildt did the same thing with Fowler in 2019, who finished the regular season something like 1 for 30, then continued that into the playoffs where Dexter went 2 for 33, with a 0.253 OPS.
Imagine finishing the season counting the PO's with something like a 3 for 63, while Arozarena rotted on the bench, and Aroz had a 0.891 OPS in his SSS at the end of the 2019 season.

Not an apt comparison.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:49 pm**

sdaltons wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:39 am I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.

So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:56 pm**

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:05 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:01 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:48 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
Hmm....let's look at 2017:

C-Molina: .751 OPS, 18 HR, 82 RBIs
1B-Carp: .835 OPS, 23 HR, 69 RBIs
2B-Wong: .788 OPS
SS-DeJong: .857 OPS, 25 HR, 65 RBIs (2nd in ROY)
3B-Gyorko: .813 OPS, 20 HR, 67 RBIs
LF-Pham: .931 OPS, 23 HR, 73 RBIs (11th in MVP)
CF-Fowler: .851 OPS, 18 HR, 64 RBIs
RF1-Piscotty: .708 OPS, 9 HR, 39 RBIs
RF2-Grichuk: .758 OPS, 22 HR, 59 RBIs
RF3-Martinez: .897 OPS, 14 HR, 46 RBIs.

Yeah, that ol' 2017 team had nuthin'! LOL
Yeah, and Matheny had nothing to do with them doing so well. Sure. A former respected major league multiple Gold Glove winner. By the way, how have many of those players done since, when playing for a different manager? Fowler?
Piscotty? Grichuk? Martinez? Gyorko? DeJong?
I thought you said they had little talent in 2017.

They had a lot of offensive talent.

Obviously, Cranny is totally confused. He has too many butts to kiss and, of course, is inconsistent as can be when trying to defend the indefensible.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 12:58 pm**

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:49 pm
sdaltons wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:39 am I have never seen anyone claim that Mo didn't hamstring Matheny.

Mo never knew how to build a roster and every manager after Tony suffered because of it. And that includes Matheny.

However Mo also hamstrung the players he did bring in by not providing them with qualified managers and coaches. And that also includes Matheny.

Both things can be true.
So youre saying Mo is an idiot. Very true!

A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated man and complicated career.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 13:00 pm**

Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:56 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:05 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:01 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:48 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
Hmm....let's look at 2017:

C-Molina: .751 OPS, 18 HR, 82 RBIs
1B-Carp: .835 OPS, 23 HR, 69 RBIs
2B-Wong: .788 OPS
SS-DeJong: .857 OPS, 25 HR, 65 RBIs (2nd in ROY)
3B-Gyorko: .813 OPS, 20 HR, 67 RBIs
LF-Pham: .931 OPS, 23 HR, 73 RBIs (11th in MVP)
CF-Fowler: .851 OPS, 18 HR, 64 RBIs
RF1-Piscotty: .708 OPS, 9 HR, 39 RBIs
RF2-Grichuk: .758 OPS, 22 HR, 59 RBIs
RF3-Martinez: .897 OPS, 14 HR, 46 RBIs.

Yeah, that ol' 2017 team had nuthin'! LOL
Yeah, and Matheny had nothing to do with them doing so well. Sure. A former respected major league multiple Gold Glove winner. By the way, how have many of those players done since, when playing for a different manager? Fowler?
Piscotty? Grichuk? Martinez? Gyorko? DeJong?
I thought you said they had little talent in 2017.

They had a lot of offensive talent.
Obviously, Cranny is totally confused. He has too many butts to kiss and, of course, is inconsistent as can be when trying to defend the indefensible.

The W-L record says it all. Without great teams to work with.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 13:02 pm**

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 13:00 pm
Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:56 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:05 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:01 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:48 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
Hmm....let's look at 2017:

C-Molina: .751 OPS, 18 HR, 82 RBIs
1B-Carp: .835 OPS, 23 HR, 69 RBIs
2B-Wong: .788 OPS
SS-DeJong: .857 OPS, 25 HR, 65 RBIs (2nd in ROY)
3B-Gyorko: .813 OPS, 20 HR, 67 RBIs
LF-Pham: .931 OPS, 23 HR, 73 RBIs (11th in MVP)
CF-Fowler: .851 OPS, 18 HR, 64 RBIs
RF1-Piscotty: .708 OPS, 9 HR, 39 RBIs
RF2-Grichuk: .758 OPS, 22 HR, 59 RBIs
RF3-Martinez: .897 OPS, 14 HR, 46 RBIs.

Yeah, that ol' 2017 team had nuthin'! LOL
Yeah, and Matheny had nothing to do with them doing so well. Sure. A former respected major league multiple Gold Glove winner. By the way, how have many of those players done since, when playing for a different manager? Fowler?
Piscotty? Grichuk? Martinez? Gyorko? DeJong?
I thought you said they had little talent in 2017.

They had a lot of offensive talent.
Obviously, Cranny is totally confused. He has too many butts to kiss and, of course, is inconsistent as can be when trying to defend the indefensible.
The W-L record says it all. Without great teams to work with.

“A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated [question] and complicated [attribution].”

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 13:32 pm**

NYCardsFan wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 13:02 pm
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 13:00 pm
Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:56 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:05 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:01 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:48 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
Hmm....let's look at 2017:

C-Molina: .751 OPS, 18 HR, 82 RBIs
1B-Carp: .835 OPS, 23 HR, 69 RBIs
2B-Wong: .788 OPS
SS-DeJong: .857 OPS, 25 HR, 65 RBIs (2nd in ROY)
3B-Gyorko: .813 OPS, 20 HR, 67 RBIs
LF-Pham: .931 OPS, 23 HR, 73 RBIs (11th in MVP)
CF-Fowler: .851 OPS, 18 HR, 64 RBIs
RF1-Piscotty: .708 OPS, 9 HR, 39 RBIs
RF2-Grichuk: .758 OPS, 22 HR, 59 RBIs
RF3-Martinez: .897 OPS, 14 HR, 46 RBIs.

Yeah, that ol' 2017 team had nuthin'! LOL
Yeah, and Matheny had nothing to do with them doing so well. Sure. A former respected major league multiple Gold Glove winner. By the way, how have many of those players done since, when playing for a different manager? Fowler?
Piscotty? Grichuk? Martinez? Gyorko? DeJong?
I thought you said they had little talent in 2017.

They had a lot of offensive talent.
Obviously, Cranny is totally confused. He has too many butts to kiss and, of course, is inconsistent as can be when trying to defend the indefensible.
The W-L record says it all. Without great teams to work with.
“A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated [question] and complicated [attribution].”

Hey, NY! Hope you’re having a great first day to this new week! The very best to you.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 13:38 pm**

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:30 pm
Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:20 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:26 am
Bomber1 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:24 am
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:07 am https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.
Gee if we only had Matheny as manager this team would be WS bound.
Matheny wasn’t the problem
Allthru 2000-2010 people were clamoring for Tony's head. More than they do Oli, if you can believe that.
I know you can Old Friend, you were here.
You mean that long haired wine drinking attorney who couldn’t manage his way out of a paper bag? LOL.

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 13:41 pm**

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 13:32 pm
NYCardsFan wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 13:02 pm
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 13:00 pm
Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 12:56 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:05 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 11:01 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 10:48 am
Cranny wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:46 am
3dender wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:30 am Matheny was a really dumb manager... high chance of CTE I'd guess from all the catcher collisions.

But the problems with the team always went deeper than Matheny. And Cards still probably may have been able to win more in the playoffs with a better manager than Matheny.
Mike did very well with the talent he had….
Gyorko, Piscotty, Grichuk, Fowler, and Pham in 2017?
Hmm....let's look at 2017:

C-Molina: .751 OPS, 18 HR, 82 RBIs
1B-Carp: .835 OPS, 23 HR, 69 RBIs
2B-Wong: .788 OPS
SS-DeJong: .857 OPS, 25 HR, 65 RBIs (2nd in ROY)
3B-Gyorko: .813 OPS, 20 HR, 67 RBIs
LF-Pham: .931 OPS, 23 HR, 73 RBIs (11th in MVP)
CF-Fowler: .851 OPS, 18 HR, 64 RBIs
RF1-Piscotty: .708 OPS, 9 HR, 39 RBIs
RF2-Grichuk: .758 OPS, 22 HR, 59 RBIs
RF3-Martinez: .897 OPS, 14 HR, 46 RBIs.

Yeah, that ol' 2017 team had nuthin'! LOL
Yeah, and Matheny had nothing to do with them doing so well. Sure. A former respected major league multiple Gold Glove winner. By the way, how have many of those players done since, when playing for a different manager? Fowler?
Piscotty? Grichuk? Martinez? Gyorko? DeJong?
I thought you said they had little talent in 2017.

They had a lot of offensive talent.
Obviously, Cranny is totally confused. He has too many butts to kiss and, of course, is inconsistent as can be when trying to defend the indefensible.
The W-L record says it all. Without great teams to work with.
“A very simplistic and naive summarization of a complicated [question] and complicated [attribution].”
Hey, NY! Hope you’re having a great first day to this new week! The very best to you.

Well, after your rather rich (and completely irrelevant and unnecessary) swipe that I’m “full of myself” for committing the grave offense of simply providing some basic, pertinent data to the discussion, my day could be better . . .

Posted: **18 Aug 2025 13:43 pm**

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025 08:07 am https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

His last full year as manager.

Enjoy the current mess. Make sure to pay the increased price for season tickets next year so can enjoy the 2026 mess.

JFC...you've started a thread that will soon be hijacked by a front office (donkey) kisser....just watch!

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