DeFranks' chat: Do the Blues really have depth on the wings after trading Bolduc?

[netboy65]

SOGG: I get your schtick but I want to be clear on the reason for my post.

My point was to show that winger depth is not the problem with the Blues when compared to the competition.
IMO the winger position is last in importance when building a team.
Centers, D-Men, Goalies, & Wingers in that order.
We should also compare the top 3 centers, top 4 d-men, and goalies of the Blues to the other teams.

I generally look at teams top 11 players (best 6 forwards, best 4 d-men, & starting goalie) when judging their strength.
Some top teams have 3 centers in their best 6 forwards. Obviously having at least 2 centers is a must.

Most consider Carolina a top team and a Cup contender.
I do not and have not because they only have 1 center in their top 6 forwards.
It's also why I never considered Winnipeg a Cup contender last year even though they were killing it during the regular season.

Taking coaching out of the equation, quality depth after your top 11 players is where the separation occurs from top tiered teams.
3rd line production/ice time (Florida reigns supreme)
4th line physicality/defensive responsibility
Special Teams
3rd pair ice time

Having your players slotted properly in comparison to their ability is also of the utmost importance.
Quick example is D. Kulikov of the Panthers.
He was playing on the 2nd pair with Mikkola as their #4 d-man last year.
As the season played out Bill Zito realized that wasn't nearly good enough.
The acquisition of S. Jones allowed Kulikov to drop to the bottom pair (#5) where he belongs and also properly slotted Mikkola as their #4 instead of #3

Of course the Marchand acquisition also transformed the Panthers 3rd line into a scoring line and was the main difference when playing the depth challenged Oilers. Those 2 acquisitions will go down in the history books as one of the best, if not the best (near) TDL deals of all time.

The importance of slotting is why I recently wrote about the d-men of the Vegas Knights.
They have plenty of time to acquire a quality d-man, but as it stands right now, their d-men group is not near good enough to be considered Cup contenders because most of their group is not slotted properly to their ability.

I understand your point, and I agree for the most part.

The winger position is definitely in better shape than the RHD position for the Blues.

My gripe is why are we in this situation to begin with? We've been in this hell for 5+ years.

The Blues had a 109 point season in 21-22. Hell?

reading his trolling is hell, I'll give him that

The worst part is every time Bolduc scores a goal we’re going to get a See!!??!! I told you so!! thread

[somni]

SOGG: I get your schtick but I want to be clear on the reason for my post.

My point was to show that winger depth is not the problem with the Blues when compared to the competition.
IMO the winger position is last in importance when building a team.
Centers, D-Men, Goalies, & Wingers in that order.
We should also compare the top 3 centers, top 4 d-men, and goalies of the Blues to the other teams.

I generally look at teams top 11 players (best 6 forwards, best 4 d-men, & starting goalie) when judging their strength.
Some top teams have 3 centers in their best 6 forwards. Obviously having at least 2 centers is a must.

Most consider Carolina a top team and a Cup contender.
I do not and have not because they only have 1 center in their top 6 forwards.
It's also why I never considered Winnipeg a Cup contender last year even though they were killing it during the regular season.

Taking coaching out of the equation, quality depth after your top 11 players is where the separation occurs from top tiered teams.
3rd line production/ice time (Florida reigns supreme)
4th line physicality/defensive responsibility
Special Teams
3rd pair ice time

Having your players slotted properly in comparison to their ability is also of the utmost importance.
Quick example is D. Kulikov of the Panthers.
He was playing on the 2nd pair with Mikkola as their #4 d-man last year.
As the season played out Bill Zito realized that wasn't nearly good enough.
The acquisition of S. Jones allowed Kulikov to drop to the bottom pair (#5) where he belongs and also properly slotted Mikkola as their #4 instead of #3

Of course the Marchand acquisition also transformed the Panthers 3rd line into a scoring line and was the main difference when playing the depth challenged Oilers. Those 2 acquisitions will go down in the history books as one of the best, if not the best (near) TDL deals of all time.

The importance of slotting is why I recently wrote about the d-men of the Vegas Knights.
They have plenty of time to acquire a quality d-man, but as it stands right now, their d-men group is not near good enough to be considered Cup contenders because most of their group is not slotted properly to their ability.

I understand your point, and I agree for the most part.

The winger position is definitely in better shape than the RHD position for the Blues.

My gripe is why are we in this situation to begin with? We've been in this hell for 5+ years.

The Blues had a 109 point season in 21-22. Hell?

reading his trolling is hell, I'll give him that

The worst part is every time Bolduc scores a goal we’re going to get a See!!??!! I told you so!! thread

Yep. That'll suck, especially for me who likes the Habs and will be rooting for Bolduc.

[DawgDad]

SOGG: I get your schtick but I want to be clear on the reason for my post.

My point was to show that winger depth is not the problem with the Blues when compared to the competition.
IMO the winger position is last in importance when building a team.
Centers, D-Men, Goalies, & Wingers in that order.
We should also compare the top 3 centers, top 4 d-men, and goalies of the Blues to the other teams.

I generally look at teams top 11 players (best 6 forwards, best 4 d-men, & starting goalie) when judging their strength.
Some top teams have 3 centers in their best 6 forwards. Obviously having at least 2 centers is a must.

Most consider Carolina a top team and a Cup contender.
I do not and have not because they only have 1 center in their top 6 forwards.
It's also why I never considered Winnipeg a Cup contender last year even though they were killing it during the regular season.

Taking coaching out of the equation, quality depth after your top 11 players is where the separation occurs from top tiered teams.
3rd line production/ice time (Florida reigns supreme)
4th line physicality/defensive responsibility
Special Teams
3rd pair ice time

Having your players slotted properly in comparison to their ability is also of the utmost importance.
Quick example is D. Kulikov of the Panthers.
He was playing on the 2nd pair with Mikkola as their #4 d-man last year.
As the season played out Bill Zito realized that wasn't nearly good enough.
The acquisition of S. Jones allowed Kulikov to drop to the bottom pair (#5) where he belongs and also properly slotted Mikkola as their #4 instead of #3

Of course the Marchand acquisition also transformed the Panthers 3rd line into a scoring line and was the main difference when playing the depth challenged Oilers. Those 2 acquisitions will go down in the history books as one of the best, if not the best (near) TDL deals of all time.

The importance of slotting is why I recently wrote about the d-men of the Vegas Knights.
They have plenty of time to acquire a quality d-man, but as it stands right now, their d-men group is not near good enough to be considered Cup contenders because most of their group is not slotted properly to their ability.

I understand your point, and I agree for the most part.

The winger position is definitely in better shape than the RHD position for the Blues.

My gripe is why are we in this situation to begin with? We've been in this hell for 5+ years.

The Blues had a 109 point season in 21-22. Hell?

reading his trolling is hell, I'll give him that

The worst part is every time Bolduc scores a goal we’re going to get a See!!??!! I told you so!! thread

Yep. That'll suck, especially for me who likes the Habs and will be rooting for Bolduc.

And that's OK. I rooted for guys like Berenson, Gilmour, Hull, and Pronger once they left the Blues, EXCEPT when they were playing the Blues! I wish Bolduc the best, maybe he and Mailloux can square off in a Cup Final.

[TAFKAP]

SOGG: I get your schtick but I want to be clear on the reason for my post.

My point was to show that winger depth is not the problem with the Blues when compared to the competition.
IMO the winger position is last in importance when building a team.
Centers, D-Men, Goalies, & Wingers in that order.
We should also compare the top 3 centers, top 4 d-men, and goalies of the Blues to the other teams.

I generally look at teams top 11 players (best 6 forwards, best 4 d-men, & starting goalie) when judging their strength.
Some top teams have 3 centers in their best 6 forwards. Obviously having at least 2 centers is a must.

Most consider Carolina a top team and a Cup contender.
I do not and have not because they only have 1 center in their top 6 forwards.
It's also why I never considered Winnipeg a Cup contender last year even though they were killing it during the regular season.

Taking coaching out of the equation, quality depth after your top 11 players is where the separation occurs from top tiered teams.
3rd line production/ice time (Florida reigns supreme)
4th line physicality/defensive responsibility
Special Teams
3rd pair ice time

Having your players slotted properly in comparison to their ability is also of the utmost importance.
Quick example is D. Kulikov of the Panthers.
He was playing on the 2nd pair with Mikkola as their #4 d-man last year.
As the season played out Bill Zito realized that wasn't nearly good enough.
The acquisition of S. Jones allowed Kulikov to drop to the bottom pair (#5) where he belongs and also properly slotted Mikkola as their #4 instead of #3

Of course the Marchand acquisition also transformed the Panthers 3rd line into a scoring line and was the main difference when playing the depth challenged Oilers. Those 2 acquisitions will go down in the history books as one of the best, if not the best (near) TDL deals of all time.

The importance of slotting is why I recently wrote about the d-men of the Vegas Knights.
They have plenty of time to acquire a quality d-man, but as it stands right now, their d-men group is not near good enough to be considered Cup contenders because most of their group is not slotted properly to their ability.

I understand your point, and I agree for the most part.

The winger position is definitely in better shape than the RHD position for the Blues.

My gripe is why are we in this situation to begin with? We've been in this hell for 5+ years.

The Blues had a 109 point season in 21-22. Hell?

reading his trolling is hell, I'll give him that

The worst part is every time Bolduc scores a goal we’re going to get a See!!??!! I told you so!! thread

Yep. That'll suck, especially for me who likes the Habs and will be rooting for Bolduc.

And that's OK. I rooted for guys like Berenson, Gilmour, Hull, and Pronger once they left the Blues, EXCEPT when they were playing the Blues! I wish Bolduc the best, maybe he and Mailloux can square off in a Cup Final.

There were some I could and some I couldn't. I didn't root for Hull, just like I didn't for Petro. True or not I thought at the time they were partially responsible for not being here. I rooted for Prongs hard, same with Shanny. I came THIS close to buying a Shanny Whale jersey. Had he not gotten sent to Detroit I would have. I was too young for Gilmour and Brindamour, but i (respectfully) hated Gilmour for how good he was in TOR beating us in 7 in the Second Round of the '93 playoffs.

[Harry S Deals]

SOGG: I get your schtick but I want to be clear on the reason for my post.

My point was to show that winger depth is not the problem with the Blues when compared to the competition.
IMO the winger position is last in importance when building a team.
Centers, D-Men, Goalies, & Wingers in that order.
We should also compare the top 3 centers, top 4 d-men, and goalies of the Blues to the other teams.

I generally look at teams top 11 players (best 6 forwards, best 4 d-men, & starting goalie) when judging their strength.
Some top teams have 3 centers in their best 6 forwards. Obviously having at least 2 centers is a must.

Most consider Carolina a top team and a Cup contender.
I do not and have not because they only have 1 center in their top 6 forwards.
It's also why I never considered Winnipeg a Cup contender last year even though they were killing it during the regular season.

Taking coaching out of the equation, quality depth after your top 11 players is where the separation occurs from top tiered teams.
3rd line production/ice time (Florida reigns supreme)
4th line physicality/defensive responsibility
Special Teams
3rd pair ice time

Having your players slotted properly in comparison to their ability is also of the utmost importance.
Quick example is D. Kulikov of the Panthers.
He was playing on the 2nd pair with Mikkola as their #4 d-man last year.
As the season played out Bill Zito realized that wasn't nearly good enough.
The acquisition of S. Jones allowed Kulikov to drop to the bottom pair (#5) where he belongs and also properly slotted Mikkola as their #4 instead of #3

Of course the Marchand acquisition also transformed the Panthers 3rd line into a scoring line and was the main difference when playing the depth challenged Oilers. Those 2 acquisitions will go down in the history books as one of the best, if not the best (near) TDL deals of all time.

The importance of slotting is why I recently wrote about the d-men of the Vegas Knights.
They have plenty of time to acquire a quality d-man, but as it stands right now, their d-men group is not near good enough to be considered Cup contenders because most of their group is not slotted properly to their ability.

I understand your point, and I agree for the most part.

The winger position is definitely in better shape than the RHD position for the Blues.

My gripe is why are we in this situation to begin with? We've been in this hell for 5+ years.

The Blues had a 109 point season in 21-22. Hell?

reading his trolling is hell, I'll give him that

The worst part is every time Bolduc scores a goal we’re going to get a See!!??!! I told you so!! thread

Sure Bolduc will likely score goals although hes ONLY had pro hockey success under Monty, so Bolduc is not a lock. But when Mailloux is a franchise top 4 RHD, fan favorite Bolduc will become a memory

[STL fan in MN]

Finally got around to actually reading the question and DeFranks’ answer. Here it is:

DCG: MDF: Do the Blues really have that much "depth" at winger, or do they just have a lot of bodies with NHL experience? Currently, they have four guys who have produced 20+ goals in a season--Kyrou, Buch, Holloway, Neighbors. They have projected that on Snuggs, but we'll see. I tend to believe, so that's a solid 5. After that, I don't think they have a single guy you could count on for 10+ goals. So, is that really depth? That's why the Bolduc trade makes me so nervous. If one of the current top 5 wingers goes down, the team will struggle to produce a third scoring line.

Matthew DeFranks: If we want to look at last year and use Zack Bolduc as a benchmark, the Blues had five wingers with at least 19 goals. That was the most in the NHL. Obviously, that changes with the Bolduc trade to Montreal, but it's tough to argue that the Blues didn't deal from a position of strength in making that trade.

You do make a good point about losing a player to injury, but the fact that losing a body impacts the ability to form a third scoring line (as opposed to a second one) should be a testament to the team's wingers. I think if you look around the league, many teams would be in a much worse off position on the wing.

Now, about center ... different story.

I’d agree with DeFranks. The Blues traded from a position of strength for a position of weakness.

While Bolduc was the more proven player it wasn’t by a ton. Mailloux is where Bolduc was a year ago - had gotten a taste of the NHL but wasn’t a proven full time NHLer yet. So why were they deemed equal value? Positional value. Right shooting d-men are probably the hardest/most expensive players to acquire and left shooting wingers probably the easiest/least. Close to 2/3 of NHLers shoot lefty so righties simply have a premium attached to them. Bolduc showed he could at least play the right side but positionally, he still brought lower value than a RD of a similar caliber. Bolduc’s certainly the more proven of the two but the positional valuation difference bridges the valuation gap IMO.