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Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:43 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:36 pm Yes, his ankle was the reason he was benched in STL to attempt to shorten his enormously LONG swing which was getting exposed in MLB…..

You've been telling this story for years, and at no point of time has it ever been true.

It'd be great if you just stopped saying it at some point.

He wasn’t benched?
And they weren’t reworking his swing?

That’s what you’re going with?

He struggled as many rookies do in their first taste of the show.

They were not doing anything to rework his swing. That would have been dumb.

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:43 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:36 pm Yes, his ankle was the reason he was benched in STL to attempt to shorten his enormously LONG swing which was getting exposed in MLB…..

You've been telling this story for years, and at no point of time has it ever been true.

It'd be great if you just stopped saying it at some point.

He wasn’t benched?
And they weren’t reworking his swing?

That’s what you’re going with?

“Aug 25, 2014 — “He's really worked hard in the cage with John and David (hitting coaches John Mabry and David Bell) on his approach and shortening his swing “. From PD

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:51 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:43 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:36 pm Yes, his ankle was the reason he was benched in STL to attempt to shorten his enormously LONG swing which was getting exposed in MLB…..

You've been telling this story for years, and at no point of time has it ever been true.

It'd be great if you just stopped saying it at some point.

He wasn’t benched?
And they weren’t reworking his swing?

That’s what you’re going with?

“Aug 25, 2014 — “He's really worked hard in the cage with John and David (hitting coaches John Mabry and David Bell) on his approach and shortening his swing “. From PD

AOF, are you aware of these new AI searches??? Mind boggling what archive material they pull

Yes, Oscar Taveras was benched in 2014 by the St. Louis Cardinals, and one of the reasons cited was to encourage him to shorten his swing.
Taveras, a highly touted prospect, struggled at times during his rookie season in the majors in 2014, hitting .239 with 3 home runs and 22 RBI over 80 games. His performance led to inconsistent playing time, and the Cardinals management, including General Manager John Mozeliak, noted that "performance plays" and the team was focused on winning games. One article mentioned that Taveras hadn't started a game in a week and had only one pinch-hit appearance during that time.
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:51 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:43 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:36 pm Yes, his ankle was the reason he was benched in STL to attempt to shorten his enormously LONG swing which was getting exposed in MLB…..

You've been telling this story for years, and at no point of time has it ever been true.

It'd be great if you just stopped saying it at some point.

He wasn’t benched?
And they weren’t reworking his swing?

That’s what you’re going with?

“Aug 25, 2014 — “He's really worked hard in the cage with John and David (hitting coaches John Mabry and David Bell) on his approach and shortening his swing “. From PD

We don't need to relitigate Taveras and how you have no fundamental understanding of what simple adjustments are... but go on believing whatever you want to. We've seen too many times, from too many people, that no matter how many times and ways that things are explained to you, you're hyper close-minded and can't acknowledge your own gaps. We're only a handful of days removed from you embarrassing yourself over what a "salary dump" is.

Taveras had an incredible swing and an innate feel for hard contact. They weren't going to tear it apart and rework it.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:58 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:51 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:43 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:36 pm Yes, his ankle was the reason he was benched in STL to attempt to shorten his enormously LONG swing which was getting exposed in MLB…..

You've been telling this story for years, and at no point of time has it ever been true.

It'd be great if you just stopped saying it at some point.

He wasn’t benched?
And they weren’t reworking his swing?

That’s what you’re going with?

“Aug 25, 2014 — “He's really worked hard in the cage with John and David (hitting coaches John Mabry and David Bell) on his approach and shortening his swing “. From PD

We don't need to relitigate Taveras and how you have no fundamental understanding of what simple adjustments are... but go on believing whatever you want to. We've seen too many times, from too many people, that no matter how many times and ways that things are explained to you, you're hyper close-minded and can't acknowledge your own gaps. We're only a handful of days removed from you embarrassing yourself over what a "salary dump" is.

Taveras had an incredible swing and an innate feel for hard contact. They weren't going to tear it apart and rework it.

I’ve just supplied you and everyone here to see 2 separate sources from that summer of 2014 with “Cardinals attempting to shorten OT swing” because he wasn’t hitting AND referencing being “Benched”. We all can read.
Which is exactly what I wrote in my original post and you’re still disputing it…….

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:57 pm Cardinals management, including General Manager John Mozeliak, noted that "performance plays" and the team was focused on winning games. One article mentioned that Taveras hadn't started a game in a week and had only one pinch-hit appearance during that time.
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

Oh, it's hilarious that you're going to suggest that John Mozeliak knew what he was doing from a development perspective

Tell us all the ways that Mozeliak has shown us that "performance plays", and the team is focused on winning games, and that he's known how to get more out of their young hitters.

It's honestly pretty funny, knowing what we know about Mozeliak and the org's player development engine, that you're going to cite his quotes on player development as some obscure evidence that a really gifted hitter needed to "rework" their swing.

Tell me more stories, these are good

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:58 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:51 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:43 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:36 pm Yes, his ankle was the reason he was benched in STL to attempt to shorten his enormously LONG swing which was getting exposed in MLB…..

You've been telling this story for years, and at no point of time has it ever been true.

It'd be great if you just stopped saying it at some point.

He wasn’t benched?
And they weren’t reworking his swing?

That’s what you’re going with?

“Aug 25, 2014 — “He's really worked hard in the cage with John and David (hitting coaches John Mabry and David Bell) on his approach and shortening his swing “. From PD

We don't need to relitigate Taveras and how you have no fundamental understanding of what simple adjustments are... but go on believing whatever you want to. We've seen too many times, from too many people, that no matter how many times and ways that things are explained to you, you're hyper close-minded and can't acknowledge your own gaps. We're only a handful of days removed from you embarrassing yourself over what a "salary dump" is.

Taveras had an incredible swing and an innate feel for hard contact. They weren't going to tear it apart and rework it.

“The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.”

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:08 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:57 pm Cardinals management, including General Manager John Mozeliak, noted that "performance plays" and the team was focused on winning games. One article mentioned that Taveras hadn't started a game in a week and had only one pinch-hit appearance during that time.
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

Oh, it's hilarious that you're going to suggest that John Mozeliak knew what he was doing from a development perspective

Tell us all the ways that Mozeliak has shown us that "performance plays", and the team is focused on winning games, and that he's known how to get more out of their young hitters.

It's honestly pretty funny, knowing what we know about Mozeliak and the org's player development engine, that you're going to cite his quotes on player development as some obscure evidence that a really gifted hitter needed to "rework" their swing.

Tell me more stories, these are good

It’s not a STORY……The team Benched him in hopes he would shorten swing because AS HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers becasue of LONG SWING. So we have raw stats, archived quotes and stories, and memories of it happening…..
But your story is……That’s Not What Happened

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:08 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:57 pm Cardinals management, including General Manager John Mozeliak, noted that "performance plays" and the team was focused on winning games. One article mentioned that Taveras hadn't started a game in a week and had only one pinch-hit appearance during that time.
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

Oh, it's hilarious that you're going to suggest that John Mozeliak knew what he was doing from a development perspective

Tell us all the ways that Mozeliak has shown us that "performance plays", and the team is focused on winning games, and that he's known how to get more out of their young hitters.

It's honestly pretty funny, knowing what we know about Mozeliak and the org's player development engine, that you're going to cite his quotes on player development as some obscure evidence that a really gifted hitter needed to "rework" their swing.

Tell me more stories, these are good

It’s not a STORY……The team Benched him in hopes he would shorten swing because AS HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers becasue of LONG SWING. So we have raw stats, archived quotes and stories, and memories of it happening…..
But your story is……That’s Not What Happened

He was a rookie coming off of injury struggling in his first half season in the majors.

I've already told you, not relitigating this. On no planet did Oscar Taveras need his swing "reworked" (your words, repeatedly). Adjustments to be quicker to the ball can happen with anyone. That isn't a "rework" by any stretch of the imagination.

And again, this doesn't need to be pages and pages about stories you want to tell about Taveras. Keep it on JJ Wetherholt. If you want to talk about Taveras and your misunderstanding of anything related to him, start a thread about it.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:15 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:08 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 14:57 pm Cardinals management, including General Manager John Mozeliak, noted that "performance plays" and the team was focused on winning games. One article mentioned that Taveras hadn't started a game in a week and had only one pinch-hit appearance during that time.
The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

Oh, it's hilarious that you're going to suggest that John Mozeliak knew what he was doing from a development perspective

Tell us all the ways that Mozeliak has shown us that "performance plays", and the team is focused on winning games, and that he's known how to get more out of their young hitters.

It's honestly pretty funny, knowing what we know about Mozeliak and the org's player development engine, that you're going to cite his quotes on player development as some obscure evidence that a really gifted hitter needed to "rework" their swing.

Tell me more stories, these are good

It’s not a STORY……The team Benched him in hopes he would shorten swing because AS HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers becasue of LONG SWING. So we have raw stats, archived quotes and stories, and memories of it happening…..
But your story is……That’s Not What Happened

He was a rookie coming off of injury struggling in his first half season in the majors.

I've already told you, not relitigating this. On no planet did Oscar Taveras need his swing "reworked" (your words, repeatedly). Adjustments to be quicker to the ball can happen with anyone. That isn't a "rework" by any stretch of the imagination.

And again, this doesn't need to be pages and pages about stories you want to tell about Taveras. Keep it on JJ Wetherholt. If you want to talk about Taveras and your misunderstanding of anything related to him, start a thread about it.

Probably best to tap out here…..until your next reference of the Great Oscar Tavares….and he was recovered from the Ankle issue before ST that year. He was benched July/Aug/Sept…..he didn’t even start the playoff games that year. Yes, “great natural hitter”. Probably more comparable to Gorman inasmuch that they tore up minors but swing didn’t work in MLB and neither adjusted.

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers

Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352

None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:27 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers

Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352

None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS

There’s the story of his 2014, and we can’t know anything more because he died. And this is the only position I’ve taken on it.
He was benched to shorten swing and we never really saw if it worked or not…….end of story

The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:33 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:27 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers

Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352

None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS

There’s the story of his 2014, and we can’t know anything more because he died. And this is the only position I’ve taken on it.
He was benched to shorten swing and we never really saw if it worked or not…….end of story

The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

He also was not well received by teammates with his cocky attitude

He was exposed, would he have made adjustments

Probably not based on his decision making

We will never know for certain

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:33 pm

An Old Friend wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:27 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 15:11 pm HIS STATS CLEARLY SHOW he was getting handled very easily be MLB pitchers

Some stat lines of other guys who were "getting handled by MLB pitchers" in their first taste of the majors...
.220/.281/.390
.179/.263/.345
.228/.285/.330
.238/.295/.400
.232/.284/.319
.224/.257/.352

None of these players have a career wRC+ below 140. BuT tHe StAtS cLeArLy ShOw ThAt ThEy NeEdEd NeW sWiNgS

There’s the story of his 2014, and we can’t know anything more because he died. And this is the only position I’ve taken on it.
He was benched to shorten swing and we never really saw if it worked or not…….end of story

The benching was partly attributed to a desire for Taveras to make adjustments at the plate, specifically to shorten his swing, with the goal of improving his hitting efficiency.
Oscar Taveras 2014 Regular Season Statistics (MLB)
Statistic Value
Batting Average .239
Home Runs 3
Runs Batted In 22
Games Played 80
The Cardinals hoped that by benching him and working on his swing, he would be able to translate his minor league success (.321 batting average across six minor league seasons) into consistent major league production.

OR, in reality, he just was going through growing pains that many players go through. Patience is a virtue, and some people have little.

He was going to be a beast.

Those other stat lines that showed players clearly getting owned by major league pitching - new swings needed? Attitude adjustments? Bench them to show them whose boss?

You'd think after watching baseball for presumably decades that you'd have some expectation that it's hard to hit in the majors, and prospects, no matter how good they are, have an adjustment period.

You can hang your hat on some dumb comments made over a decade ago by the guy who took the Cardinals organization into the tank... I can't stop you from doing that.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 13:47 pm In terms of hitting I would put JJ more on the Oscar Taveras path than the Jordan Walker.

Prior to getting called up

wRC+
Taveras
A: 190
AA: 155
AAA: 113
AAA: 125

Wetherholt
A: 140
AA: 152
AAA: 193

Walker
A: 208
A+: 125
AA: 124

Now obviously Wetherholt has separated himself from Taveras with his initial AAA performance. I would also point out that both Taveras and Walker went down as the level got harder while Wetherholt has done the exact opposite.

I understand why people can't get too excited about AAA stats, especially SSS. But again, none of these guys were as highly regarded as JJW:

AAA (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS)
Carlson: .397/.460/.744/1.203
Yepez: .287/.370/.603/.972
Donovan: .296/.394/.473/.867
Gorman: .284/.335/.530/.865
Burleson: .304/.358/.489/.847

ClassicO wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 16:33 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑04 Aug 2025 13:47 pm In terms of hitting I would put JJ more on the Oscar Taveras path than the Jordan Walker.

Prior to getting called up

wRC+
Taveras
A: 190
AA: 155
AAA: 113
AAA: 125

Wetherholt
A: 140
AA: 152
AAA: 193

Walker
A: 208
A+: 125
AA: 124

Now obviously Wetherholt has separated himself from Taveras with his initial AAA performance. I would also point out that both Taveras and Walker went down as the level got harder while Wetherholt has done the exact opposite.

I understand why people can't get too excited about AAA stats, especially SSS. But again, none of these guys were as highly regarded as JJW:

AAA (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS)
Carlson: .397/.460/.744/1.203
Yepez: .287/.370/.603/.972
Donovan: .296/.394/.473/.867
Gorman: .284/.335/.530/.865
Burleson: .304/.358/.489/.847

Carlson was close. He was Baseball America’s 9th best prospect pre-2021. He was top 10 back to back years (2020 and 2021) and top 17 by MLB back to back years (2020 and 2021).

I’m not sure what Gorman’s ranking would have been when he made his debut in 2022, but he had 16 HRs and a .915 OPS in 188 PAs that year in AAA. He was not an “elite” prospect, but he was also a good one. A top 50 prospect by MLB 3 years in a row and top 30 by Baseball Prospectus 3 years in a row.